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magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 21:52

Manxexile · 04/03/2026 21:19

"... A fair and equal two state solution with each side in control of their own security..."

But isn't one of the main drivers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that the Palestinians don't want a two state solution?

They don't want an Israeli state at all

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At the moment, almost the entire Arab world including iran has backed a 2 state solution and it is Israel saying no. The Arab world have said no to the solutions on the table in the past though - ie that the solutions were not fair and equitable.

There has been moving around of positions in the last 100 years or so. In terms of normal Palestinians and Israelis there are wide variety of views, ranging from one state which is democratic and not a religious state, to more extreme views.

I am sad that this is even still being debated. This has been covered off before in numerous threads which I have seen, with the same players, and yet it all starts again with false accusations on a new thread!

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 21:46

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 21:15

You may think you are being 'polite' but you are just a bully.

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How?

Because I say I don't agree with you?

You are the one hurling personal attacks, not me.

Firry · 04/03/2026 21:28

Manxexile · 04/03/2026 21:19

"... A fair and equal two state solution with each side in control of their own security..."

But isn't one of the main drivers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that the Palestinians don't want a two state solution?

They don't want an Israeli state at all

Show quote history

Indeed. What proportion of Palestinians want a 2 state solution? Because even before 7 October they just wanted to murder every Israeli.

Tikitaka20 · 04/03/2026 21:25

Manxexile · 04/03/2026 21:19

"... A fair and equal two state solution with each side in control of their own security..."

But isn't one of the main drivers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that the Palestinians don't want a two state solution?

They don't want an Israeli state at all

Show quote history

I don’t know enough about the situation to have a definite answer, but my understanding is that it is Hamas - rather than Palestinian citizens - who don’t want an Israeli state. I think it’s likely that Palestinian citizens will have a range of views on this, just like Israeli citizens would.

Tikitaka20 · 04/03/2026 21:22

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:48

I don't know enough to comment on the genocide argument, but to respond to your question, there were public comments made by a senior Israeli personnel (possibly army personnel I am not certain) about killing all Palestinians in Gaza (in 2023 I think). I could find you an exact quote and the person who said it so you can google it. This was in a military magazine and i don't think it was propaganda or made up. Would you say those comments would be evidence?

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Is it these comments and this man (ex-Israeli intelligence chief), by any chance? - https://www.commondreams.org/news/is-israel-comitting-genocide. They’ve been reported in other sources too.

Before reading this article, I thought they could be evidence of genocidal intent which is the position shared as this article. I don’t think I have any firmer view than that for now, as I don’t know enough about the genocide argument either.

'Evidence of Genocidal Intent': Israeli General Calls for Killing 50 Palestinians for Every Oct. 7 Victim | Common Dreams

Israeli general Aharon Haliva's chilling remarks on the necessity of Palestinian deaths in Gaza for future generations reveal a disturbing genocidal intent. With over 62,000 Palestinians killed, including children, will the world continue to turn a bli...

https://www.commondreams.org/news/is-israel-comitting-genocide

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 21:19

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 21:10

Sorry I just saw this.

Actually you were suggesting that other people who disagreed with your politics were "bad" (I can't remember if you said bad faith or bad actor but either way the comments were totally unjustified and it was you being rude to others not others being rude to you) and you said you just wanted to support Jewish people so I said that everyone would support that but that this thread was more about politics and trashing other cultures and that if you started a new thread which was just about support it might achieve your stated aims better. No one told you to go away.

i find this thread appalling personally but I am trying to stay polite when I make points.

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I find your posts appalling when you continue to bully the OP. If you don't like what others post on her thread or what she posts herself, feel free to leave.

Manxexile · 04/03/2026 21:19

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:40

No, this started in 1917 when Balfour signed an agreement which was vague and unclear and went against the agreement already made with Arabs in the area known as Palestine. Check your history books. The conflict has been going on ever since, with land gradually being taken over by force.

Israel didn't leave Gaza in 2005. Israel has not left the West Bank either.

A fair and equal two state solution with each side in control of their own security and pressured by the international community to stick to agreements is the only way forward.

Show quote history

"... A fair and equal two state solution with each side in control of their own security..."

But isn't one of the main drivers of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that the Palestinians don't want a two state solution?

They don't want an Israeli state at all

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 21:15

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 21:10

Sorry I just saw this.

Actually you were suggesting that other people who disagreed with your politics were "bad" (I can't remember if you said bad faith or bad actor but either way the comments were totally unjustified and it was you being rude to others not others being rude to you) and you said you just wanted to support Jewish people so I said that everyone would support that but that this thread was more about politics and trashing other cultures and that if you started a new thread which was just about support it might achieve your stated aims better. No one told you to go away.

i find this thread appalling personally but I am trying to stay polite when I make points.

Show quote history

You may think you are being 'polite' but you are just a bully.

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 21:12

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 21:10

Sorry I just saw this.

Actually you were suggesting that other people who disagreed with your politics were "bad" (I can't remember if you said bad faith or bad actor but either way the comments were totally unjustified and it was you being rude to others not others being rude to you) and you said you just wanted to support Jewish people so I said that everyone would support that but that this thread was more about politics and trashing other cultures and that if you started a new thread which was just about support it might achieve your stated aims better. No one told you to go away.

i find this thread appalling personally but I am trying to stay polite when I make points.

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And by the way, when you refer to "decent" posters who agree with you it implies that the other posters are not "decent" so that isn't very nice of you.

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 21:10

LucyWestenra · 04/03/2026 17:45

No, you know what?

I was upset and thought it best to step away, but instead I am going to listen to the sane voices on here, the decent people (also have my husband’s voice in my inner ear all the time, telling me not to let people mistreat me)

I wanted to shy away because this is what my mother made me do for decades, she made me feel stupid and small (which is ironic given I’m just shy of six feet)

So no, I won’t go. And I don’t need to start another thread because I haven’t said anything wrong on this one.

if you think I have, feel free to leave @magneticclocks

Maybe therapy is finally starting to take effect because I am starting to stand up for myself.

Edited

Sorry I just saw this.

Actually you were suggesting that other people who disagreed with your politics were "bad" (I can't remember if you said bad faith or bad actor but either way the comments were totally unjustified and it was you being rude to others not others being rude to you) and you said you just wanted to support Jewish people so I said that everyone would support that but that this thread was more about politics and trashing other cultures and that if you started a new thread which was just about support it might achieve your stated aims better. No one told you to go away.

i find this thread appalling personally but I am trying to stay polite when I make points.

Manxexile · 04/03/2026 21:05

Tikitaka20 · 04/03/2026 19:38

This isn’t a negotiations exercise where users give you ground on some issues and you give them ground on others. It’s about dealing in clear facts.

With that said, I don’t know if you saw my post above that said genocide is an extremely specific term that needs to be used with due seriousness. I haven’t seen a clear case that Israel has committed genocide, so I cannot agree with you. I don’t know about others, but that is my position for now. I might change my mind in the future, but for now, I cannot say Israel has committed genocide.

I’d be very interested - genuinely - to hear what makes you so certain that Israel has committed genocide. Is it just because of the UN’s conclusion or from seeing other evidence too?

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One of the problems I have with the term "genocide" is that whenever I check its UN - and legal - definition, I'm always surprised at how broad and wide ranging it is.

In my mind "genocide" always conjures up a far more horrific and appalling image than the word itself apparently means.

Genocide Convention - Wikipedia

I have no idea whether Israel has or has not committed genocide in Gaza, and nobody else here does either

Genocide Convention - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:56

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 20:49

No I wouldn't.

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Why not?

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:56

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 20:48

Don't tell me, a Jewish woman as you already know, to check my history books! I could write one myself rather than rely on Wikipedia. And Israel DID leave Gaza. The army had to move settlers away from their homes there. Hamas do not want a two state solution much as the rest of the world want. They want all Jews out of Israel and a Palestinian state formed instead. Am Yisroel Chai.

You know about what happened in 1917 and between 1917 and the present day, and you believe that what is happening now is unrelated to that? It is a "new" war totally unrelated to anything which happened in the past?

What has happened since 2005 has been catastrophic for Palestinians in Gaza. What about the barricades around it? The overcrowding? The fighting? The lack of facilities? Not being able to exploit off shore oil? The check points? The daily involvement?

Saying Israel left is classic double speak, surely?

Do you believe in a two state solution?

Hamas has said various things about two state solutions over the years and more to the point, their funders in the Arab world support a two state solution and so there is political pressure. I have seen people explaining this to you on other threads and so I am not sure why you are still maintaining your black and white position?

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 20:49

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:48

I don't know enough to comment on the genocide argument, but to respond to your question, there were public comments made by a senior Israeli personnel (possibly army personnel I am not certain) about killing all Palestinians in Gaza (in 2023 I think). I could find you an exact quote and the person who said it so you can google it. This was in a military magazine and i don't think it was propaganda or made up. Would you say those comments would be evidence?

Show quote history

No I wouldn't.

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:48

Tikitaka20 · 04/03/2026 19:38

This isn’t a negotiations exercise where users give you ground on some issues and you give them ground on others. It’s about dealing in clear facts.

With that said, I don’t know if you saw my post above that said genocide is an extremely specific term that needs to be used with due seriousness. I haven’t seen a clear case that Israel has committed genocide, so I cannot agree with you. I don’t know about others, but that is my position for now. I might change my mind in the future, but for now, I cannot say Israel has committed genocide.

I’d be very interested - genuinely - to hear what makes you so certain that Israel has committed genocide. Is it just because of the UN’s conclusion or from seeing other evidence too?

Show quote history

I don't know enough to comment on the genocide argument, but to respond to your question, there were public comments made by a senior Israeli personnel (possibly army personnel I am not certain) about killing all Palestinians in Gaza (in 2023 I think). I could find you an exact quote and the person who said it so you can google it. This was in a military magazine and i don't think it was propaganda or made up. Would you say those comments would be evidence?

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 20:48

Don't tell me, a Jewish woman as you already know, to check my history books! I could write one myself rather than rely on Wikipedia. And Israel DID leave Gaza. The army had to move settlers away from their homes there. Hamas do not want a two state solution much as the rest of the world want. They want all Jews out of Israel and a Palestinian state formed instead. Am Yisroel Chai.

magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:43

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magneticclocks · 04/03/2026 20:40

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 19:38

Don't be so bloody patronising. Israel left Gaza in 2005. It has been 'ruled' by Hamas since they won an election in January 2006. No elections since so not exactly a democratic rule,. The Gaza war began with Hamas' atrocities on 7 October 2023, after years of rocket attacks as well as other terrorist activities upon Israel.

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No, this started in 1917 when Balfour signed an agreement which was vague and unclear and went against the agreement already made with Arabs in the area known as Palestine. Check your history books. The conflict has been going on ever since, with land gradually being taken over by force.

Israel didn't leave Gaza in 2005. Israel has not left the West Bank either.

A fair and equal two state solution with each side in control of their own security and pressured by the international community to stick to agreements is the only way forward.

Manxexile · 04/03/2026 20:29

IcyPlumShaker · 04/03/2026 19:29

So Hamas started this did they?

I suggest you read some history. Start I. 1947 and work forward from there..

As recently as 1947?

Isn't that bit like turning up at the theatre after the intermission has ended?

You'll only understand half of what's going on.

Original poster
LucyWestenra · 04/03/2026 20:07

Why can’t people stay away from this thread if all they have to offer is whataboutery or worse 😭

This was started in good faith

Shame on you who seek to derail it

Because it’s about Jewish women

At least own your bigotry

Ffs

OP posts:
Twiglets1 · 04/03/2026 19:43

Tikitaka20 · 04/03/2026 19:38

This isn’t a negotiations exercise where users give you ground on some issues and you give them ground on others. It’s about dealing in clear facts.

With that said, I don’t know if you saw my post above that said genocide is an extremely specific term that needs to be used with due seriousness. I haven’t seen a clear case that Israel has committed genocide, so I cannot agree with you. I don’t know about others, but that is my position for now. I might change my mind in the future, but for now, I cannot say Israel has committed genocide.

I’d be very interested - genuinely - to hear what makes you so certain that Israel has committed genocide. Is it just because of the UN’s conclusion or from seeing other evidence too?

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It isn't even the UNs conclusion. As I stated earlier:

The UN themselves say it cannot make a legal determination as to whether a situation constitutes genocide under international law. It says a situation is referred to as genocide only after a competent national or international court has declared it as such.

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is currently hearing a case brought by South Africa that accuses Israeli forces of genocide, but it could take years to reach a conclusion.

HappyFace2025 · 04/03/2026 19:38

IcyPlumShaker · 04/03/2026 19:29

So Hamas started this did they?

I suggest you read some history. Start I. 1947 and work forward from there..

Don't be so bloody patronising. Israel left Gaza in 2005. It has been 'ruled' by Hamas since they won an election in January 2006. No elections since so not exactly a democratic rule,. The Gaza war began with Hamas' atrocities on 7 October 2023, after years of rocket attacks as well as other terrorist activities upon Israel.

Tikitaka20 · 04/03/2026 19:38

IcyPlumShaker · 04/03/2026 18:31

Ok, so we can agree that Hamas raped and murdered Israeli women in Oct 7th. I have no problem at all with agreeing with you on that.

Can you agree with me that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza?

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This isn’t a negotiations exercise where users give you ground on some issues and you give them ground on others. It’s about dealing in clear facts.

With that said, I don’t know if you saw my post above that said genocide is an extremely specific term that needs to be used with due seriousness. I haven’t seen a clear case that Israel has committed genocide, so I cannot agree with you. I don’t know about others, but that is my position for now. I might change my mind in the future, but for now, I cannot say Israel has committed genocide.

I’d be very interested - genuinely - to hear what makes you so certain that Israel has committed genocide. Is it just because of the UN’s conclusion or from seeing other evidence too?

OneLoyalLurker · 04/03/2026 19:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Original poster
LucyWestenra · 04/03/2026 19:30

hazelnutvanillalatte · 04/03/2026 19:16

Genocide is defined as the intentional, systematic destruction—in whole or in part—of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. That hasn't happened. What has happened is defense and retaliation against the most brutal and deadliest terrorist attack in Israel's history.

What I'm illustrating to you is that, if genocide were the goal, it would not be continuing to this day.

Putting aside the fact they started this war by murdering and kidnapping thousands of innocent people, Hamas never even surrendered and was the one rejecting peace deals...that is not the behaviour of an area undergoing genocide.

But it's a really obvious and transparent tactic to attack and then run away crying genocide when the target retaliates. I love asking people like you what Israel SHOULD do to defend themselves. What WOULD be deemed acceptable. There is never any response...

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This in spades.

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