Or are young people becoming increasingly insular/scared/lacking in motivation and drive?

Only if they have money, which he must be getting from you if he doesn't have a job?

Who's employing children so readily round your way? Please enlighten us, as round our way companies won't touch them with a barge pole here due to H&S, insurance and safeguarding.

Some people will do things like... Pay them to cut the grass or whatever. But not regular employment as such.

The biggest error I ever made was allowing my ds to have an xbox (when he was 14). I wish I hadn't. I think his life would have been different, although covid and Brexshit would have still happened and ruined a lot of opportunities for him.

He has done other things, played sport at a high level, got his degree and Masters etc, but I feel sure he would have been out and about a lot more if he'd not been gaming.

Exactly. It’s all such a worry.

a 15 year old family member of mine no longer goes to school. Hasn’t for the last two years. She has a need to be in control and doesn’t get on well sitting in a class room. She spends her days in the bedroom. The specialists and her close family members have said education comes second to mental health. They are working hard with her to manage it but ultimately after two years they haven’t managed to get her out her room. The advice from specialists is that she will come round in her own time. Not to force social interactions. And worryingly don’t punish her. Ie don’t remove her phone. So the outcome to all that is teaching a 15 year old she can make the decision on whether she wants to attend school or not and if she doesn’t want to go she can stay in her bedroom all day on her phone or online. This is at specialist advice too! It’s all so concerning! People are treating certain good things (education or social interactions) as if they are mutually exclusive to mental health. There is no due regard to the surely worsened situation of letting this fester with no resolve. No appreciation for the fact that the resulting consequences of all this are surely worse than the initial unpleasantness of coming outside of the comfort zone!

the pendulum has definitely swung the other way! And parents can only go with the advice being given.

But not ALL teenagers are like this. Mine go out all the time (aged 17 & 19, one in yr 13, one at uni) and they have both had jobs since they were 16. Both learnt to drive as soon as they could and bought their own cars, are always out and about, go clubbing and to pubs and go on holiday / foreign weekends away with their friends. So I think there is an element of personality- I am the sort of person who is always doing stuff and I think it rubs off, they get very bored staying in. They do use their phones a lot but still have normal friendships like we did in the 90s. It’s not all doom and gloom.

I think it's lack of motivation altogether.
I'm 46 and feel like this, especially about scuba diving. 😐
About others, I don't give a crap.
At the age of your kids, it's probably too early to feel that way.
🙁

I don’t recognise this in my dc or of their friendship groups.

However my DC are in elite sports and most of their peers are highly driven and motivated young people.

DS1 (19) plays sport at elite level, does a F/T apprenticeship and attends university night school studying Engineering.

DS2 (16) plays elite level (county and country) sports and is F/T apprenticeship studying IT.

There time tables are a logistical nightmare and causes me and my husband a great deal of stress, it’s got better as ds1 drives and ds2 will drive as soon as possible when he turns 17.

My sisters children, who I love to death however have no ambition or self drive to better their careers/lives. DN1 (22) is a admin assistant on NMW and DN2 (18) has never worked having dropped out of education at 16 as “she couldn’t be bothered”

We have to stop blaming Covid for our parenting fails. Allowing constant screen use is what is damaging children, not the few weeks off school 6 years ago!

In addition to this the current trend for giving children too much autonomy, lack of expectation, lack of boundaries and not holding them accountable for their behaviour is producing a generation of children with mental health issues.

They are terrified. They are crying out for the adults to take charge, to tell them what to do and to and tell them no!

I hate the phrase setting boundaries, but I'll go with it for one post only...

The thing with this concept is it only makes sense once you actually know what your boundaries, limitations and interests are. Now, in my forties, I am able to resist signing up to a lot of stuff, because I know from experience that I hate routine and will never, for example, stick long term to going to regular choir practice. When I was younger I was always up for anything, then would get bored and give up after a while.

I do know, though, that I love a one-off thing, like being in an am dram production.

My point is, yes it's good to set boundaries, but not preemptively before you even know what you like doing. It's taken me decades to work it out, and I've experienced loads of things in that time. Young people seem to let the little bit of anxiousness you naturally feel when you try something new take over their entire being.

I disagree with that.I've made all three of mine work from about 14. (Various badly paid jobs for a max of about 5 hours a week). Hasn't stopped them working or revising any left, just stopped them being on their screens.
Learnt so many skills and people always comment on how they are at engaging.

I suspect some people are more susceptible than others to it, but it's nonetheless a lot of people, and it's a huge problem. I feel it myself, as a dopamine seeker. I don't even do social media, but sometimes I still get stuck for a few days spending too much time on a site e.g. Mumsnet, and everything else seems duller by comparison. I force myself to reset by doing things like longform reading (of a physical book ideally), or watching films without any devices around me, but I grew up without smartphones and I know how to do that. Young people don't.

I do wonder sometimes if we're all overreacting - my dad used to say TV would rot the brain, after all - but I'm not sure we are. I don't have my phone on me unless I absolutely need it, which is basically just when I take a train or go to the shops and need some app or other. I don't take it when I go for walks, and I don't have it near me when I watch TV. I still feel like I'm too addicted to it though, and I definitely am to my laptop.

When I have friends staying with me, they are in their phones all the bloody time, and I hate it. Even if phones aren't messing with people's brains (and it seems that they are), they're ironically very antisocial, considering people are supposedly socialising on them. I loathe text and whatsapp conversations as a means of maintaining relationships though, it's completely pointless (also covered in that podcast I linked to). I feel no sustenance via text, everyone sounds the same, and when friends send me videos and things my heart sinks, because I know they expect me to watch and respond. Text is fine for making arrangements and other essentials. For actual friendship and catching up, I do it in person, or at worst on a phone call. Doesn't matter if it's only every few months or even years, it feels more real and sustaining then endless wittering on whatsapp.

I think they get quite confusing messages from adults.

One is work hard at school get qualifications go to uni and get a good job, buy a house

But the next is there are no graduate jobs, heres far to many graduates, you'll never get a deposit together, its all a big debt.

Then its AI is coming for all the middle class jobs left and all the creative ones. The only jobs left will ne physical.

Then its get an apprentiship or a trade but they arent actually that easy to 'get' and despite everyone saying plumbers earn millions, not all apprentiship are plumbing. So your example of childcare its not AI replaceable, doesnt need a degree so no deb, but it probably doesnt pay well so now its not ambitious enough.

It is addiction to devices

It is hard but just leave he/her at home but let them know they can't change their mind at the last minute.

I don't think it's everyone - teenagers have always spent loads of time in their bedrooms. We were just listening to music and maybe phoning friends on the landline, not on social media.

Some kids meet up less than they used to in real life, though my oldest (17) is with friends far more than DH and I ever were at their age. They are a bit of an outlier and are into very social things like performing and protest which work best actually out in the world. I do gather a lot of young people don't see each other as social media/whatsapp takes the place of meeting. Also, doing anything is super goddamned expensive - I imagine many young people can't or don't want to ask their parents for the money it takes to go out. Plus there are fewer jobs under 18s can do to make money themselves with the demise of high street shops and a general idea that under 18s won't be capable of doing stuff (which i think is nonsense and a shame)

I think sometimes young people can be a little self limiting - it is good to have boundaries and not over-task yourself but sometimes this whole 'set boundaries' thing can also spill over into not pushing boundaries and taking risks. It sometimes feel like oldest has ruled themselves out of some things before trying them, for example. But like I said, there are positives to having boundaries too.

Technology makes your world feel bigger than it is. You can stay in your house and get fed and entertained without having to do anything at all. The real world doesn't compare, so it's easier to stay on devices and chase that dopamine hit. My DCs love staying home on a device, but they have screen limits and I do insist that they get out at least once a day. It's hard because they are growing up in a completely different world to the one we did.

It's the doom scrolling generation... Loving life though a screen never wanting to gout, so never experiencing tricky moments,singer scared and turn into boring boring people who do nothing, have no thoughts, no desires to do anything... because...scroll scroll scroll scroll.

I have a younger sibling in their mid-20s who is exactly the same. The worst part is they think they are 100% right about everything and that DP and I (millennials) are ‘delulu’ with our optimism, drive and zest for life.

I mainly just feel sorry for them and have distanced myself. Perhaps I would feel different and more responsible if it were my child rather than my sibling, but sometimes you’ve got to just let people fester and/or self-destruct. It’s their life.

Genie is out of the bottle though isn't it? There's no going back unfortunately and just can't isolate one child by resisting, it would be extremely unfair and counter productive. I'm 60 and have two mid 20's DC, devices are a way of life. It just has to be navigated because it's not going anywhere for better or worse.

It's devices. I listened to a really fascinating (and quite unsettling) podcast about this the other day:

https://open.substack.com/pub/uncomfortableconversations/p/premium-how-big-tech-destroys-learning?utmcampaign=post&utmmedium=email

There are too many interesting things in it to summarise them all, I really recommend a listen.

Edit: I'll summarise a few bits, while I remember them:

Computers are very bad for learning, we need some kind of physical engagement and human connection to really learn well.

The countries that have embraced tech the most in day to day life (China and Japan) nevertheless don't use computers much in schools.

Learning about resilience is not the same as learning how to be resilient (through experience). This is a huge problem for young people today, as they are only doing the former.

Mine are a bit like this re hobbies and activities, though academically they seem to be doing ok still (I suspect a bit younger than yours though). I feel like a rubbish parent but can't seem to motivate myself to limit the devices, because it is so hard and I get screamed at, then feel even more demotivated and rubbish.
Feels like things started to go wrong around covid and we never got back on track. And I wfh and feel similarly listless and demotivated a lot of the time.