To think it will be revealed WLI cause physical aging

I don't know you, I'm not talking about you. I know six people who pay for mounjaro, yes. Three cousins (sisters) and three friends. I know they pay because they have told me and discussed the price; I know one friend gets a private prescription and one gets it illegally (no one would prescribe for postpartum weightloss and so she went off-market). No idea how the others access it as I haven't asked, just discussed the use. None of these people were significantly overweight to start with, one maybe was verging on quite noticeably overweight, but has herself said she had not had health issues due to it, she just wanted to be thinner.

If you think that the costs outweigh the benefits, brilliant. If down the line you suffer side effects from long term use, only you can know if that was worth it. I don't suggest that the drugs shouldn't exist, I just think when I hear people who have lost weight on them (and finally feel thin) discuss them, there is some cognitive dissonance about what is really going on (and how they look to other people). You'll see how I said 'naively so' was an opinion, based on discussions with people I know personally.

@Soontobesingles you know 6 people who have all accessed Mounjaro via the black market as none of them would qualify for a prescription, and they have all told you that's how they've accessed it?

Or do you mean that they wouldn't have got an NHS prescription for Mounjaro? Because hardly anyone meets the additional criteria the NHS apply. I didn't, and I had a BMI of 50 and high BP before I got my private prescription for Mounjaro.

You say "people who have taken weight-loss drugs, especially those taking them off the black market, are hugely defensive about the benefits vs costs, imo, naively so." - I access Mounjaro legitmately via private prescription, so maybe I am less defensive (?!) about it, but can you explain why I would be naive about understanding that the benefits to me massively outweigh the risks and costs to me? The only cost is financial for me, and otherwise I have only seen benefits.

⬆⬆⬆

Wot she sed.

This is what I have been attempting to say but needed someone to word it better.

This isn't a case of something being all good or all bad. It is, like most things, a case of cost benefit analysis, and that includes the situation of the person involved.

All the moralising about are people cheating, are people just jealous etc injects negative and counter-productive confusion around something that needs to be approached with full knowledge and objectivity and a respect for the context - which will differ.

I think it's pretty obvious that several things are true:

• these drugs are going to be massively beneficial for obese people whose health is at risk as a result of their weight gain
• many of these people will be on those drugs for life
• the drugs will, like all drugs, have some negative side effects, with a minority of people experiencing extreme negative effects
• people who are not obese, and are not struggling significantly with their health as a result of their weight, but who want for various reasons, to be thinner will also continue to use these drugs
• they will also likely need to maintain use for a long time to maintain weightloss
• they will damage their health by taking the drugs to a greater or lesser degree (but perhaps will think the payoffs are worth it, as our culture reveres thinness above all else)
• people who have taken weight-loss drugs, especially those taking them off the black market, are hugely defensive about the benefits vs costs, imo, naively so.

I agree that sizes are inconsistent, but if someone says their friend is size 16, they mean that in general, size 16 is most likely to fit them, with of course exceptions. They don't mean a generally size 10 person who may have some clothes in 16. And an average height person who for the majority of their garments fits into a size 16 is at least overweight if not obese. I certainly would have been.

Well it’s most definitely within mine. I take exception to being called a liar because it doesn’t fit your narrative or your experience. Vanity sizing is also a factor - a 1980s size 10 was a very different proposition, it’s now labelled 8 or in some cases 6. When I was young size 6 didn’t exist.

Anyway, all of this is missing the point which is that dress size is a very unreliable metric for weight and size.

Seems to be a surprise to some people that collar bones are meant to be on show. Was a surprise to me anyway when I saw mine, never even knew they were there!!!

@FurForksSake it was a different type of tumor. It was showing on a second scan.

They couldn't take my gallbladder until they did the major surgery.

I'm now into my seven stone reduction but I wasn't allowed to diet until I finished my chemo drug.
I'm tall and tbh I'm really happy at a 14-16 ( having been a 24) I'm 60 and I'm not looking for a new Mr Lipstick!

@Mrsredlipstick you are so lucky they found that. I know someone else who took mj (god knows how) it flared up their very long standing gallstones (previously refused to go ahead with surgery) and then discovered they had a tumour due to the flare caused by the mj. Sadly they are very much going to die from it. Biliary cancers are very, very often found too late and are inoperable. Thank goodness they found yours.

15% increase in gallbladder removal apparently.
Mine were caused by cheese apparently. I used to love cheese and wine.

My comment re a result was I had an undiscovered tumour which would have killed me.

I'm a combination of obese BMI, an athletic amount of muscle and a tall, broad frame. My shoulders are 2" wider than the highest average range for women, for example.

I wear a high BMI well - I think 20-27 is a more representative range of health for me.

I think a more holistic approach to health measures would benefit people more - resting heart rate, waist to height etc.

A size 6 WOULD look skeletal on me - I start to have pronounced collarbones etc at about 16st. Everyone would benefit from being more in tune with their health measures.

I've lost 52 kilos on WLI - over 18 months.
BMI dropped from 41 to 24.

I do have wrinkly skin on my body but I can live with that.

I do have more & deeper wrinkles on my face & I do think I look older for it, but everyone tells me I now look 10 years younger.

Whatever - I'm really not bothered, I have no interest in the male gaze and I am feeling & (I think) looking pretty fantastic. I'm lighter, stronger, fitter and probably healthier thatn I have been for 40 odd years.

Personally I would never get fillers/botox etc - they hold no appeal for me. We get wrinkles as we age. Its really silly to get all worried about it.

It is nothing to do with fat being 'morally inferior' what nonsense

Plenty of people treat obesity as inferior - just have a good search through these boards - and one of the things people feel criticised for over the WLI is a sense that people are implying they have somehow cheated. There ARE complicated issues of moral condemnation in it all.

In reality people are mostly just doing their best.

BMI is not discredited. It has always been a simple tool that indicates obesity rather than diagnoses it. It is accurate for a very large percentage of people, in that if BMI indicates that you are obese, measurements of your actual body fat will usually also show that you are obese, with a few exceptions. Eg athletes with a lot of muscle mass.

The NHS BMI calculator does take ethnicity into account.

People always say this, but I’ve never experienced it. When I was a 16 I couldn’t get into a 10 and at a 10 an 16 always drowned me. Maybe it’s not the brands I buy from, but as much as I think most of us straddle two dress sizes, ie 8- 10, 10- 12, a 10 - 16 is outwith my experience.

Fat isn't "disgusting" anymore than wrinkling is "ugly"; they are less than ideal ramifications of getting older and I don't see why one has to be seen as morally inferior.

It is nothing to do with fat being 'morally inferior' what nonsense. Being fat is bad for your health. Wrinkles are not linked to increased risk of health conditions and disease as you age. If you value yourself, you will choose to be thin and wrinkled every time.

Dress size is a ridiculous metric. The labels in my wardrobe range from 10 to 16. All those garments fit me. I believe BMI has been discredited too, not only because it fails to account for the higher weight of muscle, but because it doesn’t take age, ethnicity or anything else into account. It’s a very blunt instrument.

I imagine you have good muscle tone , that makes a difference comparing weight to dress size. I’m 5’3”, generally wear a 16 but in some trousers I’m an 18 to accommodate my waist. I have BMI of under 28. My muscle tone is very poor.

The pictures posted on this thread are really positive examples of exactly what you are describing.

Well I've always been quite thin, so there you go. No jealousy there.

The truth is older women don't look like they did when they were young. That is my point. It isn't necessarily because they have been overweight first. I am just trying to say it's lose-lose in every direction if you take a judgemental view.

There is just too much mud-slinging across the sides of the fence on these threads and all it really does is entrench women's lack of self-acceptance.

No-one is allowed to say anything about the possibility of the drugs having side effects, others won't accept people can look gaunt from age not drugs.

All these things can be true and I think it's about time we started building a vision for older women that wasn't so tied to how they look. There is way too much unhealthy pressure.

ETA the truth is the decisions are hard. personally I think where obesity is genuinely causing health problems, the drugs seem sensible. But an overly zealous approach to what is an untenable weight means people who don't need to take the possible risks are going to start taking them. That is why I think the suppression of any discussion of possible risk is dangerous.

If feels like the new stick to beat peiple with,

like we tried long term effects, safety, side effects, it’s been in use so long and proven so safe we can’t use that any more so let’s go tell them they look older lol.

imaginw being so jealous you do that. Even in front of all the evidence otherwise, it’s utterly cringeworthy,

Miaow, you ask for acceptance but start off saying a lot of thin women are haggard and guant. Good grief, what an awful jealous thing to write.

Kellie Osborne does look very different and it’s quite worrying . But I know loads of people (colleagues etc ) who have lost weight recently who I suspect were using the injections and none of them look like that at all. I mean , that’s extreme really. I think having a bit of weight on can make some people look younger but being very overweight or obese ages people in my opinion.

A lot of women who were always thin are haggard and gaunt.

I just think whoever she was put it well when she said that after a certain age, it's a "choice between your bum and your face." That's the "bottom" line.

And I think we should just be a little bit judgmental of both sides of that coin. People tend to pick a side and say "well I'd rather be haggard than FAT" or vice versa.

Why not all just be a bit gentler and accept aging is hard. Peri can pre-dispose women to weight gain without them needing to be piggish gluttons, and it is hard not to look wrinkly if you keep to BMI levels that you had as a 16 year. A thin figure on a 61 year just doesn't look as lovely as on a 16 year old. That's life.

I mean if this were medieval times most posters on these threads would be dead so anyone over 40 is doing pretty well in that context.

To me it's all about a little bit less judgment and a bit more acceptance. Fat isn't "disgusting" anymore than wrinkling is "ugly"; they are less than ideal ramifications of getting older and I don't see why one has to be seen as morally inferior.

Well I’ve been on nearly two years, maintaning for the last year on a low dose, all my blood test results now very healthy, it’s night and day compared to two years ago where I was an event waiting to happen . I look better, I feel better, I’m healthier, and without a doubt, I look younger. Mentally I am in a much better place, as feeling exhausted and not liking your appearance takes it’s toll.

so I shall keep on keeping on.those who are all covered in concern, i suspect you don’t need to worry as you can’t get them anyway, and that’s the real issue for you, for those of us lucky enough that we can get them. We are fully educated and will continue to make our own decisions, supported by our prescribers or GPs.

oh and I had no side effects either. Some mild nausea when I moved up to 5mg, not repeated, since. No consitpation, no sulphur burps, no nothing. Just improved health markers across the board.

but those pretending concern as you’re resentful and jealous as you can’t get them, if it’s cost it will come down, if it’s weight, then yup you need to keep struggling to maintain, sometimes life just isn’t fair.