To find my dysfunctional 70yr+ parents unbearable for hoarding + wittholding seeing wills?

There is an outstanding podcast called "Overcoming Compulsive Hoarding" hosted by someone who has a hoarding disorder. She interviews all sorts of people including children of hoarders - I really recommend it!

This is very sad. There are so many victims here.

Trauma responses can be fight, flight, freeze, fawn, flop - seems that you took flight - but your brother is stuck in freeze or flop - also maybe some repressed fight. Not sure where your DM is - fawn probably.

Seems like your DB is paralysed in his freeze - might not be spoiled at all - or if he is it’s maybe your DMs guilt?

All very messy, enmeshed and tragic. You will be most effective to keep your distance and not get sucked in to this futile and toxic energy but maybe having some compassion for your DB and DM.

This is a great suggestion, especially as things like photos and mementos could easily be lost amongst the hoarded items. Many people have said it’s fine just to use a house clearance service, but this runs the risk of sentiment items being disposed of. We used a house clearance service for my mum’s house, but only after we’d gone through and got all the paperwork, photos, mementos etc that we wanted.

I’d also suggest @ByRoseSnake that if there are any items still in the house that belong to you (old schoolwork etc) and you want to keep them, you should start taking them home over your next few visits. Your parents shouldn’t object, and it means there’s one less thing to deal with when things come to a head.

I agree that this is something you should be thinking about now, even if your parents are reasonably healthy at the moment. My experience with my PIL is that they were healthy in their early 70s, but now they are in their late 70s and have various health issues plus FIL is showing signs of dementia. MIL had an operation last year where she was in hospital for a while, and it was quite eye-opening (and upsetting) to see how FIL struggled without her.

It was stressful enough without having to deal with the additional issues that you have with your father and the hoarding. PIL have made wills, but DH and his brother are trying to sort out Power of Attorney and struggling as MIL says she wants to arrange it, but keeps putting it off. Having been through a similar situation with my mum, I know that things are likely to get more difficult 😞

The other point I’d make is that you might need to face the fact that your worst case scenario is that your parents may have made your brother the sole beneficiary of their estate due to his ‘need’ being greater than yours in their eyes and you the executor

Just to say that you can renounce being an executor, so your sibling would have to instruct a solicitor to sort out the bequest in that case. You do not have to do it.

I'd leave them to it. They are only in their 70s, not 90s. They could easily last another 20 years. Don't ruin your best years worrying about it.

My dad's the same and I don't think you're unreasonable feeling that way, but as others have said it's up to them and nothing you can do about it until the time comes.

I would try to just put it out of your mind and have no expectation that you'll receive anything. That way anything you do receive will be a pleasant surprise.

My dad's house is absolutely stuffed to the rafters with tat, and I have already decided that for the sake of my own wellbeing I am just going to get a charity shop or house clearance company to come and take it all away rather than feel like I have to sift through it.

If you can't find a will after they have passed away you can go to a solicitor specialising in bereavement and ask them to help. They can do a search to see if a will has been registered anywhere and if not the default rules of probate will apply.

@ByRoseSnake

If there was a law against caring too much, you’d get thrown in the slammer.

I hope you can find peace in knowing that it’s going to happen whether they have a spotless house or a frightening house.

And I promise that one day all you’ll remember will be the laughter and the smiles and the happy times you shared.

I promise - because my dad took his own life and let me tell you, it was a nightmare.
But many years on now, I only have happy memories.
And if I do, so will you. Cross my heart.

Much love. ❤️

@nkgp here's how to cancel being an executor https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pa15-give-up-probate-executor-rights
Basically you just fill in a form and it's done. They will never know you did it, as they'll be dead. Don't even consider being someone's executor unless you really, really want to - it's a shitload of work for no thanks at all.

Just a thought OP, about sentimental items. Sentimental to YOU, that is.

We have what we call The Family Wall in our house which is full of photographs of grandparents, parents, siblings, cousins, weddings, birthdays, graduations, anniversaries, schooldays, holidays. We got the idea from other people's houses, so I don't think this is a particularly unusual thing to do.

Could you have a conversation with your mum about specific e.g. photographs that you might want for your Family Wall? 'Mum, I saw in a magazine this collage of family photos and I think I'd like to create one for myself - do you have any photos of me and brother in school uniform / from <particular event> / of Aunty Mabel / of your wedding / of you and Dad when you were young or in school?

In this way you might be able to get access to photos important to you, without causing any distress or pushback from them?

OP I'm so sorry to hear this and I'll say again, do please join us in the Elderly Parents section of this board.

I’m an eldest daughter, as are many of my friends and I completely understand your frustration. It always seems to be the ‘responsible’ eldest daughter who has to sort out the mess that’s left behind. When my father sold his house, yes he got a house clearance company in, but I had to sort out 12 plastic crates of paperwork first, and then get a shredding company in. And that won’t be easy if you’re 300 miles away. He was then in a nursing home for 6 years, but I then acquired a huge filing cabinet full of more paperwork to sort out. I also have a severely autistic brother who is looked after by the NHS, which is an ongoing concern.
I do suggest you ask your parents where they keep all their financial and legal paperwork in the kindest way you can. Priorities would be a PoA, the will, bank statements, deeds of the house, insurance policies etc. If they’re hoarders,like my dad, they may well have stacks of paperwork.
The ‘tell us once’ service and also the ‘Death Notification Service’ for banks , which is less widely known, are really useful. I would also get a solicitor to do all the probate and be the executor, if there’s enough money in the estate. It will save you hours of hassled
Having been through similar myself, you are definitely not being unreasonable.

Just to jump in, you are correct that an executor can resign at any time as long as they have not “intetmeddled” with the Will. So you can’t start being an executor and dealing with the estate and then bow out, you have to say no immediately pretty much. And when I say immediately I mean after death. You can agree to be someone’s executor but it’s not binding and you don’t sign anything to that effect (normally executors are discouraged from even witnessing the will). But you are at perfect liberty to refuse to act after death, you cannot be forced into it.

That said, if you are also a beneficiary then being an executor is probably in your best interests for obvious reasons. So in a real sense you can be “forced” if you want to obtain probate and get the funds from the estate. However, you can appoint a lawyer to do it all for you and you simply just sign off on everything. That comes with cost of course.

Sadly not uncommon. Neither my parents wanted to talk about death. Fortunately mum.had a will.

A valid option is to nothing until you have to. Sort through what you want to keep and bin the rest. If there is direction on what goes to who then it's equally valid that nothing needs keeping either.

Dh has yet to deal with this. He has asked about wills, poa. Told both exist but neither told about where the will is or how to contact the poa if needed. So the questions was asked. Largely ignored. The next step is to forget about it until there is no choice. When there us no way to contact any poa, when no will turns up. Deal with then.

Unhelpful siblings then get their hands forced. Sad but true. You have remember this is your parents choice and wishes. Even if reckless and unhelpful sadly

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale

Thank you - I read my post over again and it sounds extremely far fetched. It’s nice to have someone confirm it - as bizarre and tragic as it was.
I honestly don’t remember what she was buried under, just that she could not get out from the large pile that was on top of her.
So tragic.
And yes - I think there’s companies you can hire, too, but I don’t know where to find them.
I recall the hoarders having difficulty letting go of just about anything when the removal people were there - like boxes of straws or plastic spoons or random things they’d never need - the need to hoard was so strong.
It’s truly heartbreaking.
And even once their house is cleaned out, what’re the chances they won’t fill it up again?
That’s where the psychological treatment comes in. And you just feel so bad for them - because something nearly always happened in their life to trigger the hoarding behaviour.
They need specialized treatment, but they have to genuinely want to get better.
Thanks again. ❤️

Sorting out who you want to make your decisions for you in the future IF future you loses mental capacity can ONLY be done as a mentally competent adult FFS.

The time to consider it (separately for finance and health) and to put it into place is very much whilst you are a mentally competent adult.

If you lose capacity and you don't have a POA in place, your relatives' hands will be tied. Somebody will need to apply to the Court of Protection to be apointed as your deputy. This can be a lengthy and costly process, and you can't choose who your deputy is, so for example in the OP's parents case it could end up as their son who makes questionable decisions, or a social worker. If it is a social worker and say you need a care home, you'll end up with the most basic care package in the cheapest care home likely a long way from your friends and family, and said friends and family won't have any say in it.

I cannot stress enough: the time to think about and appoint a POA is before you need it!!

Though LPA is not possible once competency is lost.
It can only be done by a competent adult. DH and I did ours years ago.

As the person who is looking after her 75 and 78 year old parents I'm so glad that I was able to have sensible conversations with them about what their wishes are around everything from their healthcare to their money. I do worry about it as it will all fall to me to sort out and I am VERY grateful that my mum at least recognises that and wants to not make my life any harder than it's going to be, once one or both of them go.

We had a sorting everything out session a couple of years ago, and most of it is a one and done situation. I now know things like what their preferences are for cremation and burial. Both I, and their respective spouses have POA for if they become incapacitated, for both finance and health. I know where to find their wills, and things like which objects have inherited significance so that I will either keep them and know a bit about their history, or offer to other family members before they end up in the proverbial skip.

It turned out that I had put far more forethought into what would happen if one or both of them needed care (and when they die) than they had, and they've updated POA and wills as a result. Not least because one has been estranged from their sibling but hadn't updated their will or POA for 20+ years to reflect that!

(To everyone:)
If your adult child "does this to you" and is a sensible sort, PLEASE talk to them. Even better, instigate the conversations. You don't have to divulge anything to them that you don't want to, but if they're likely the ones who are going to have to deal with everything when you go, please do your best in advance to make it as easy as you can for them. Nobody wants to become mentally or physically incapacitated but e.g. dementia is a cruel beast and IF it were to strike you in the future, it's in your own and your family's best interest to have made your wishes clear and other plans long before you thought you needed them.

Same plea goes to everybody of any age. A friend of mine's husband went from fit and healthy to diagnosis and dead from cancer within 8 weeks. He was 38, and has left her with a whole load of shit to deal with that could have been better prepared for. You never know when your loved ones are going to have to deal with your death, and if you care about them (and your future self who may be reliant upon them to make decisions for you), why on earth wouldn't you want to make life easier for them?

As a PP noted, there will be an expectation from social services that your brother provide some elements of care if he's living at home. Without a diagnosis proving he can't do this, my expectation will be there will be an assumption he can do things like cook meals, do housework etc, especially if he's not working. Unless he can prove he can't do this, they'll assume he can and that it's happening. There was virtually no help for my family member in the home despite injuries to self and others. No-one in SS cared or the NHS cared much. This is when family has to step in.

It'll be a real test of his character when his parents can no longer do everything for him. You won't know which way it'll go until that happens. Let's hope he steps up.

And yes it's sad that people end up with nothing and having to pay for their own care but that is unfortunately how it is. I do think it's often unfair in terms of who gets funded and who doesn't, but it is what it is. I have a relative who's just spent 200k on care and the LA will now have to pick up the tab (they're very well cared for in the care home and could carry on for years I think).

If they leave the house to your brother just back away. If he comes running to you tell him you've offered plenty over the years and they've always refused. He will have to learn to run the house and if he cant he will have to clear it , sell it and go into some kind of warden accommodation if he cant manage.
If its left to you both he will still probably want to stay in the house. Maybe best to let him and give up the inheritance for an easier life.
Alternatively, hire a house clearance company, they can find and give you the photos/important paperwork. Then sell the house, go your separate ways

My friend had this worry 60 year old brother had never left home. Big house widowed mother, they were told nothing. Three years ago mum died. She left everything to son. They did help him sort out mum's stuff.

In three years he's filled a five bedroom house with his crap. He's a decade and more younger than his siblings. God knows who'll have to deal with that mess one day

This could go on for years and years ... so stop worrying and keep on living your life and do the things you want to do.
Stop cleaning and sorting just stop.
Honestly you are gaining nothing from doing this let them be dysfunctional.
As for your brother leave him to his useless self you are right you are not his mummy .
Stop ... and live for you in the now .

Your description of a life slipping down the drain with nothing to show for it is very very sad. Your parents have capacity in making choices. They are living their life. That is what life is for. They are lucky that they have to freedom to make their own decisions.

And your brother, you don’t know if he has been deemed incapable of work and therefore gets PIP which will support him. Don’t blight the next 10 / 15 years of your life.

I wouldn’t worry about funerals. You don’t even need to have one.

If your anxiety is stopping you sleeping at night and enjoying your own life then perhaps you could have like a short course of therapy to deal with that anxiety and that may help you separate from your parents.