I am not a "person who menstruates"

Yes, they should disband all these diversity teams and get back to what they are supposed to be doing. It's not as if they have spare capacity to waste on all this idiocy.

✔️ You're obsessed
✔️ Men in dresses
✔️ Fear of things that aren't happening
✔️ Scaremongering
✔️ Limited to Mumsnet and TERFs
✔️ Punching down

What I don't understand is why you post things like this. In response to paragraphs and paragraphs of reasoned argument, data and intensely personal anecdote... you resort to misrepresentation, avoidance and cliché, and this is so far removed from the reality of the surrounding posts that it just draws attention to its own absurdity.

It doesn't help your cause!

(And this is why some of us keep posting - so others can see, laid out in rows of easily comparable posts, the frequent difference in content, approach and tone between the two sides of the debate).

There's a reason that trans ideology attempted to normalise #nodebate, whereas so-called TERFs created the idea of #operationletthemspeak.

In just the last 2 pages, on the GC side of the ring, we have:

• "...research into women with head injuries..." / "I don't want transwomen/men to lose their identity, and I also don't want women to [either]..." (me)
• "Losing specificity of the single sex group "women" in favour of the mixed sex refers-to-all-of-humanity "people" disconnects us from our history and each other..." (Rhino)
• "2024 MoJ data" / "It is a very contentious issue..." / "Please consider googling [name of anthropologist]..." (Cats)

and over on the other side of the ring, we have:

• "Daily Mail" / "to stoke hate and division" / "confected outrage" (Queene)
• "Hardline Islamic cleric" / "threat of Sharia law" / "racism" (Bird)
• The tiredly familiar list with which I opened this post

The difference in approach and tone is striking.

It honestly sometimes makes me wonder if posters resorting to these associations and accusations actually believe in their own cause. I wish you'd do it more justice - surely, if you truly care about it, it deserves a better airing than this; a firmer foundation for the apparent strength of feeling it engenders?

'questioning my own sanity' that makes two of us. Ironic that most the points being debated actually apply to trans men in these spaces not trans women, but you're still obsessed by men in dresses and fears of things that aren't happening outside of the scare mongering limited to Mumsnet and TERF discussion groups.

Brave women don't punch down.

Oh dear, why am I wasting my valuable time debating realty with someone so firmly wrapped in a delusion they'll argue as an Olympic sport? this thread is starting to make me question my own sanity!

Why you keep referring to "gutter press" Muslims and Christmas is beyond me, it's not what's being discussed here, we're discussing a woman's right to be called a woman. And yes, you've possibly been living under a rock or with you head in the clouds if you haven't encountered any such language or example or the erosion of women's rights over the past ten years in your day-to-day life. Indeed, maybe you just don't care, that really isn't my problem. The majority of women do care and we object to being euphemized to pander to a man's delusions.

Thank God for the truly brave women that have fought on the frontline of this outrage for years and have now given lots of other women the courage to stick their head's above the parapet.

Biological men, whether in a dress and make up or not, are not the most marginalised group in society, I think you'll find that's women, maybe that's why they have had so much power in this debate for so long, because it is essentially a men's rights movement.

I'm off to make a cup of tea now and do something enjoyable, whilst quietly thanking all the brave women that are helping defeat this madness.

All true @auserna

As a 6ft 2" adult human female, I don't feel much if I'm "misgendered". I know my own sex, regardless.

Those who get angry at being "misgendered" hate that others won't go along with their beliefs.

This, OP!

I agree with you fully @auserna as 4/6 of those phrases no longer apply to me ( I haven't done the other 2 in a long time either) but I am most definitely a woman.

It is offensive

Exactly this. How much money has the NHS spent on this harmful ideology altogether?

When you add up the vast sums squandered on defending the indefensible (forcing nurses to change with men, punishing nurses for calling a male rapist Mr), the pronoun badge and rainbow schemes, the free full body electrolysis/ (for men who call themselves only, not women either PCOS obvs) boob surgery/double mastectomies/vast quantities of hormones (men take 4x a women’s dose), the writing up and reproduction of ‘health information’ literature that is less clear and accurate then before, the changing of all the NHS IT systems etc. It will be millions and millions of £££

Then we’ve got the ticking time bomb if medical malpractice lawsuits that will ensue when vulnerable kids realise they’ve been sold the biggest dud ever, they haven’t changed sex, they don’t want to be ‘trans’ any more, no one wants to date them and they have ruined their bodies and fertility.

And some PPs can’t see any issue with waving through the tip of that very big iceberg.

How do I know that I have a cervix?

Because I’m a woman female cervix-haver.

I don't find all the nonsense language particularly dehumanising. I just wish the NHS and other institutions would get off the woke bandwagon and get on with their actual jobs.

It's crazy that the NHS and other institutions are captured by all this.

I had to complete a health consent form about 2 years ago. It had a section headed 'people with the ability to give birth'. As I've had a hysterectomy, I was going to leave this section out. But when I glanced at the questions in that section, one of them was 'have you had a hysterectomy?'

I realised that section was specifically for women but they couldn't just say that. I resent the amount of money, time and effort spent on diversity teams to come up with this nonsense.

Well post-menopausal women don’t menstruate so I guess they can’t call them that. I’ve never given birth so I’m not a birthing person or a chest feeder so you can’t call me that 🤷‍♀️

Meanwhile cis men are always still referred to as men I’m guessing.

Well yes. Feminists care about women's social rights and status as a whole, and that means we often seem weird and angry to women who just care about their own lives and their own status. Twas ever thus. You should have seen what some women said about the Suffrgettes!

Although since the topic of this thread is not imposing sexist and false distinctions between women (female people) based on beliefs about gender, TERF was rather the wrong word to pick wasn't it? MERF certainly, but someone arguing that trans identifying female people are still women is hardly excluding trans people from Feminism.

I also notice you haven't even tried to answer my question, just dismiss me as a person. But surely such a simple question should be easy as anything to answer?

Trans rights activists insist that trans women are women and trans men are men because they have the minds of women and men.

In what way is that not a sexist belief that only some types of minds are right for men and for women?

Insisting that society consider "women" and "trans men" to be different types of "people who menstruate" changes us from simply being the half of humanity who are female in all our diversity and with any type of mind into the people who have whatever type of mind it is that transmen feel they don't have.

In what way is that not imposing onto all women a sexist reduction of who we are?

Now I'm fairly convinced you're not arguing in good faith, I'm afraid. This is a laughable analogy and easily disproven with quick googling of the organisation's scope and reputation, and by skimming the link I posted above of hundreds of examples of such organisations reducing women to bodily functions.

I'm afraid you're just not coming across as convincing when you perceive Millie Hill's witty words about this issue as poisonous "bile"... yet apparently avoid making any reference to CatsAreBetterThanMen's moving account of the physical and emotional harm that can be caused to women by the theft of their shared language and collective identity.

The contradiction here is similarly obvious in the posts dismissing women's concerns as "petty" and "unkind", and this issue as insignificant. The truth is that there is at least as strong an argument that transwomen claiming the words "women" and "female", and insisting on "she" instead of "they"/"zey" etc., is similarly "petty" and "unkind" and unnecessary. I'm interested as to where posters supporting the latter and condemning the former see the stark difference they appear to see - a difference so stark that it validates one as essential and the other as laughable or moral anathema - and whether they can articulate their reasoning.

Rhinos has done a great job of explaining our reasoning. Briefly put, if transwomen are women, then the people who are currently enslaved in Afghanistan and 70% more likely to be injured in a care accident in the UK due to their bodies, are left no word at all to name themselves and each other. In contrast, if transwomen are transwomen and transmen are transmen, then everyone has a word.

I'm just not seeing any argument from "the other side" that convincingly opposes this view - a view, after all, that acknowledges these competing needs, and considers how they can be addressed without one of these two groups being completely dissolved and silenced. I don't want transwomen/men to lose their identity, and I also don't want women to. The above - each having their own word, in a context of sensible acknowledgement of biological sex where required for everyone's health and safety - is my answer to this twisty mora dilemma. What's yours?

Because thus far, it seems to simply be that one group should defer to the other: "Silly women making a fuss about sacrificing or compromising their language!" and even positing arguments for retaining the original meaning of "woman" as irrational, hateful and extremist. Such extraordinarily emphatic dismissal of an entire demographic as being unjustified in even advocating for retaining its own descriptor can only ever serve as proof of just how much that demographic needs the language to advocate for themselves: of how devalued they currently are.

Meanwhile, beautifully expressed, step-by-step explanations of our (fairly straightforward) argument, supporting data (eg. Millie Hill's blog and transwomen's sexual offending) and intensely moving anecdotes (eg. my Black woman's Youtube vid. and Cats' daughter) seem to be being ignored, or sidestepped as too complex to address, or straight-up misrepresented. Seeing this happen quite honestly doesn't help to convince, either.

No, I'm quietly getting on with things whilst managing not to berate other women, but there's a queue of TERF's waiting to tell me how I'm betraying the sisterhood.

The equivalent to what genderists demand when they demand employers, healthcare providers and public bodies use "trans inclusive" (ie sexist) language "women and other people who menstruate men" would be for Muslim people to insist that public discourse and legal identities start referring to Muslims and Infidels. This is not happening.

The genderist sexism however is happening.

Trans rights activists insist that trans women are women and trans men are men because they have the minds of women and men.

In what way is that not a sexist belief that only some types of minds are right for men and for women?

Insisting that society consider "women" and "trans men" to be different types of "people who menstruate" changes us from simply being the half of humanity who are female in all our diversity and with any type of mind into the people who have whatever type of mind it is that transmen feel they don't have.

In what way is that not imposing onto all women a sexist reduction of who we are?

I don’t think trans people are ‘imposing their sexism on the rest of humanity’ and more than I think Muslims are imposing their traditions on us, you can’t wear a poppy, the word blackboard is banned - insert made up outrage of choice. You are amplifying a few extreme views to stoke hate and division- there is too much of that in society already.

No.

It's about the moral right of 51% of the population to retain the name that gives us our social and legal identity and connects us to each other and to our history.

Trans "women" are a minority group of men. Trans "men" are a minority group of women. Their self identity is ultimately based in sexist ideas about what type of mind is "right" for what type of body. It is not an reason to redefine every single human being on the planet into the same sexist framework.

If the only way trans people can be happy in themselves is to impose their sexism onto the rest of humanity than I'm sorry but it's too much of an ask. It's not fair, it's not reasonable and it's not a true reflection of who we as humans are. They need to find another way.

Yes, that is why it is akin to the Daily Mail 'they've cancelled Christmas' confected outrage. If you dig enough you will find examples to back up your claim, but they will be obscure and far from mainstream. In reality, this is a non-problem and the aim is to stoke division and direct anger at a minority group.

La leche league are common knowledge because of how bizarre their 'campaign' was, I don't know anyone who took that seriously. You can bring up fringe extremists for any subject it doesn't mean there's an actual threat. Perhaps if the NHS start taking policy advice from them.

I could quote a hardline Islamic cleric and say that we're under threat of Sharia Law and Christmas being banned. Most people would recognise that as racism and not reality. Same situation.

I find this argument a bit disingenuous, this is a much deeper issue that is deliberately obfuscated by trying to frame it as all about being kind and inclusive.

Please google La Leche League and their focus "on inclusive language like chest feeding and human milk feeding" and their encouragement of "trans women" i.e. biological males, breastfeeding babies.

Women are advised to cease taking the combined (oestrogen containing) contraceptive pill whilst breast feeding, then consider the feminizing hormones that men have to take in order to "lactate" to chest/breast feed a baby. Then please google "Peripheral Precocious Puberty due to Exogenous Estradiol in a 3-Year-Old Girl: A Case Report" and think about the as yet unexplored implications of all of this on a child's future health.

It is a very contentious issue whether men that have been taking feminizing hormones can produce nutrient rich milk, and the possible effects of those hormones transferring to the baby through the lactation, more research absolutely has to be done in this area before La Leche League and the NHS (amongst other organisations) promote the agenda of "trans women" "breast feeding" - and yes, that promotion absolutely includes the very real use of so called gender neutral language in professional settings.

When do we start to question whether a man's wishes should trump a child's healthy development?

Also please consider googling the evolutionary anthropologist Katie Hinde to learn about her amazing research and the emerging evidence of how important and ingenious a phenomenon Mother's breast milk actually is.

We seem to be living in terrifyingly misogynistic times when using the word WOMAN has become a flash point for mens rights.

I think when people use the term gender critical they actually mean gender realist.

Edit* Just for clarity, I am a gender realist.

2024 Ministry of Justice data confirmed that around 62% of "trans women" (biological male) prisoners had at least one conviction for sexual offences. In comparison around 19% of male and 4% of female prisoners were sex offenders. Surely the discrepancy is glaringly obvious for all to see.

You say:
"Very very few sex crimes are committed by trans people. They are predominantly committed by men, as we know."
Please tell me you are aware that "trans women" are in fact biological males, hence the need for women to have single sex spaces, as men are staggeringly more predisposed to commit sexual offences against women and children?