Nearly 1m young people out of work

There are plenty of jobs. Some people are getting used to the idea that they don’t have to work as the government will look after them.

Oh that's so lovely.

Absolutely agree. And, just to add a bit of extra emotion to it, my dad also said when he went to the hospital to see me, there was a strike on at the time. He was going towards the picket line and said "I'm here to collect my premature baby to adopt her" and they all parted like the Red Sea to let him through 🥲

Or indeed if a serial killer midwife had been at your birth as the other poster nostalgically described.

I was a very prematurely born baby in 1981, three months premature and weaned off heroin, 2lbs which at the time was quite tiny.

Fortunately, I was extremely lucky to get the last available bed in the NICU at King's College hospital, so it was the forefront of modern treatments for premature babies. My consultant was the pioneer of NICUs, Mr Gamsu, who described me to my adoptive dad as a "miracle of modern paediatric care ".

Yes, my care probably cost thousands. So did other babies' care.

But my adoptive parents wouldn't have the same situation if nature had taken its course and known best.😢

This!

But in this case it wasn't nature that knew best. It was the midwife apparently.

Doctors and midwives today will still tell parents if there is no hope for their child. They won't lie and give treatment they know won't work. The difference is, parents won't be lied to and told it was a stillborn. They are allowed to hold the baby usually and that's thought to be better for closure/grieving.

That isn't so much a story about changing medical treatments (those are significant) but about a change in the relationship between medical professionals and patients. The idea of a midwife believing they had the right to play God like that and lie to the mother is terrifying.

But there's already a point at which doctors will advise the parents they should hold their premature/ill baby and enjoy the hours they have left rather than attempt to treat. It's a heartbreaking thing to have to do but there is still a cut of where treatment would be prolonging the inevitable for a few days. That doesnt mean anyone should be taking a pillow to newborns face. This is also why I don't like people tying the legal abortion limit to faetal viability because it introduces too many external incentives to what's already a very difficult situation. I think introducing likely future ability to pay taxes to the decision matrix.is even more gruesome.

On the other hand my friends daughter was born at just over 21 weeks and is a healthy teenager now doing GCSEs. And will probably pay lot sof tax in the future. As will a lot of babies modern medecine saves. The few that survive but can't work aren't the problem with the economy.

Well the biggest change really is the ability medicine brought to prolong life at the other end.** In the past many people might expect to live 5 years after retirement now it's more like 20. But I suspect you aren't planning to forgo all modern medicine for yourself post retirement or fling yourself of a cliff Viking style when you are no longer fit enough to work and contribute to the economy.
(Ím not a fan of mandatory euthanasia (or effective euthanasia through medical neglect). But if you are going to advocate for it it makes more sense to start at 65 than 0.

**Child mortality is much lower but most of those children-that-would-have-died grew up to be healthy adults.

in that case, much respect

DH's taxes have covered the costs @BackinRed101 ! The public is not out of pocket on this one!

but some would say the cost of the treatments vs the tax paid is not enough as the treatments would cost thousands more than the taxs

I am the first to concede hypocrisy here. I would tell you that saving old fat people is not our first priority, but the NHS saved my DH aged 50, and he has paid 40% tax for 20 years since they did.

Exactly. A nurse filled my mother with all sorts of horror prognosis just after my birth before she saw the paediatrician (this was the mid 70s, before scans, telling her that I would be little more than a vegetable. Heaven forbid she'd taken a pillow to me...

that seems to be the issue people are quick to say the benefits bill is omg but then if you offer up the cold perspective suddenly thats omg too, so its like what does society want etc

The issue is we can’t turn back the clock, to a before time , so we’d end up assigning people a value and deciding who lives and who dies based on that value. The second issue is that that value would be easily changed to suit the government/rhetoric du jour.

Because I am 70, and grew up in a world where not every baby could be saved... my first ever boss's wife was a midwife and every so often he came in quiet at work. I asked why one day and he told me, [name] had to put a pillow on an unviable newborn yesterday and tell the mum it was a stillbirth. Now, I think the world feels we should keep them all alive, regardless of the cost or the contribution they might make. The whole equation is a very uneasy one for me.

ill admit it is deep waters unfortunally

Ouch @BackinRed101 that is a penetrating question. Forgive me if I don't feel up to giving a proper answer.

thats the thing where does society do whats best vs whats suitable for society as a whole when the system is based on £

I get all that, and I sympathise totally. We love our children unconditionally and will move mountains to look after them. But calling it eugenics has a very nasty rasp. Some foetuses and new borns are not robust enough to be viable, but modern medicine can alleviate so much, possibly too much?

Sorry.I’d probably feel the same way if all I knew about schools and various issues were through being a parent, just a member of society, rather than working in/with it.

I did say in the whole school, not in one class. These are across various year groups. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

My ideas are long term and very costly(and possibly unrealistic), so wouldn’t fly on here or with the government.

but then on the flip side the way society is run in general for profits etc then at somepoint $ vs society or a new system is needed thats not based on profits