To be the most shocked about the women possibly involved in it all

Aren't some named escorts, who procured women for him? Naomi Campbell, Donna Air etc? It was all about money and moving in these weird circles. I cant imagine any knew of the darker stuff?

@Whereareallthegoodpeople I am someone who always believed in the idea of a village/women supporting each other. But I know of two women, one who knowingly married a paedophile, and one who was secretly recorded being verbally abusive to a child. Both have very important jobs, seem very normal to anyone who meets them. Both still blame the victims. Made me think you can never really know people.

I agree I do find the involvement of women more shocking and GM’s involvement (a posh English woman) apparently made it feel safe for girls like VG to get involved. GM could apparently‘sniff out’ vulnerable girls who’d been previously abused.

The justification for privileged women’s involvement (whether GM or Queen Elizabeth II in paying £m to hush up the abuse) comes from seeing the victims as ‘other’. GM described them as trash. The involvement of the victims who then went on to become JE’s enablers once they became’too old’ for JE’s tastes, I think comes from their being groomed and trapped in that awful world.

That's certainly true @Daygloboo as nobody does know what actually does go on in other peoples heads

I would argue that such types as you discuss are creating their own narrative about other peoples' motivations. Ultimately they eould be going down their own rabbit hole. Nobody can truly know what is in another person's head.

Have name changed
I don't think I'm a psychopath well I hope not but I might be, but people are weak and can be easily flattered & if you know what buttons to press you can have them eating out of your hand.
You make them feel special & so good about themselves by asking them for little favours & in return doing them bigger favours so they do you bigger favours.
They become your puppets & your dolls & yes you might like them too but it makes you feel special too to manipulate them & rather entertaining
Though it's rather boring too.

I try not to do it & if I do, I try to do it for the good of humanity as bizarrely I get more of a thrill about doing good as doing bad is too easy.

I am on the autistic spectrum but am I also a psychopath? A moral psychopath? But that's surely absurd?

This reminds me of a quote by Primo Levi from The Drowned and the Saved, about prisoners in the 'grey zone' in the concentration camps, those who were forced to work in the crematoria :
'Nyszli (a Jewish doctor forced to assist Mengele) attended a soccer game between the SS and the SK {Sonderkommando) , that is to say, between a group representing the SS on guard at the crematorium and a group representing the Special Squad.
Nothing of this kind ever took place, nor would it have been conceivable, with other categories of prisoners; but with them, with the "crematorium ravens," the SS could enter the field on an equal footing, or almost. Behind this armistice one hears satanic laughter: it is consummated, we have succeeded, you no longer are the other race, the antirace, the prime enemy of the millennial Reich; you are no longer the people who reject idols. We have embraced you, corrupted you, dragged you to the bottom with us. You are like us, you proud people: dirtied with your own blood, as we are. You too, like us and like Cain, have killed the brother. Come, we can play together.'

Obviously some of the stuff he says here applies specifically to Auschwitz, but I think some can be applied to any group where some of the persecuted are also used to pepetrate atrocities.

So far !!

Well, just look at Trump’s staff now. Women working for him in plain sight, even knowing what we all know.

Great post, I agree with this.

I think the less violent thing was accounted for by the less strong comments. We do not seem nearly as driven by sexual desires, I agree. But none of the stuff these women did seems to have been driven by violence or sexual desires. They seemed to get money, connections and access to elite society.

Women tend to be more empathic, but that means they are better at reading and reflecting emotions - which probably makes them better at this type of work. And generally affective and compassionate empathy is concentrated on people we think of as like ourselves. But in these sorts of situations the victims are generally Othered already and so less likely to elicit these reactions.

But I’m not saying women are just as bad as men, simply that women aren’t angels and it’s kind of infantilizing to think of women as being monolithic in their behaviour to the extent you are surprised that some are involved.

What I do find infuriating, though also not surprising, is that the only person doing crime for any of this so far is a woman.

You are being unreasonable to be shocked.

While patriarchy and misogyny are created by men, to benefit men, they are supported by women who have internalised them and either play by the rules of the game to elevate their own position, or because they truly believe them. Quite often those women are amongst the loudest supporters of misogyny.

Women are our own second-biggest enemy, so eager to show our allegiance to a man, perhaps to assure our own protection. If we just follow the rules then we'll be safe (except that's an illusion).

It's like 1984: ‘Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia! I don’t care what you do to her. Tear her face off, strip her to the bones. Not me! Julia! Not me!’

No nothing surprises me. There have been many evil and sick abusive women over time these people somehow find each other it seems. Maybe there is a secret handshake that says ' I am a twisted and sick person'?? They tend to cluster. For validy, for safety, who knows.

Slightly off at a tangent here but I always remember growing up and every now and then there would be something on the news about Hindley and Brady, probably because they will still searching for the victims back then.

I always felt that the focus was always more in her and how evil she was with that horrible photograph you always saw, and Brady seemed to be very much an afterthought. I never understood it, but I assumed that as he was completely insane and she was female and therefore meant to be not capable of such evil, that somehow she was assigned more of the blame while he was left in the background.

I think that's a bit harsh : it's not just that we're weaker, we're also generally higher empathy on average, plus less inclined for both biological & social reasons to be physically or sexual violent (on average).

I agree lots of women have done awful things throughout history, though.

Definitely not? I think you overestimate yourself. You can afford to be so theoretically superior because you have never really been in a situation to test it. People, including you, are capable of terrible, terrible things, given the right circumstances - and I would imagine they all, at one time, would also have said they definitely couldn't be.

Hang on, what? I thought she was living with Epstein during the abuse, not with a boyfriend..

Elisabeth Maxwell was a highly regarded scholar and peace activist. It is believed she knew nothing about the missing pension funds; she was left financially severely depleted after his death. "Elisabeth lost her pension, all her property, and only her children continued to support her. She was a wonderful person, kind and supportive, quite contrary to her husband, whom she loved despite everything."

She told the New York Times "The worst years of my life were 1981 to 1991. I was at his beck and call with no kudos, nothing was right. What saved me was my work on the Holocaust."

Ghislaine was born two days before a car accident that left her fifteen-year-old brother Michael in a six-year coma until he died in 1967. Elisabeth later reflected that the accident had an effect on the entire family, and surmised that Ghislaine had shown signs of anorexia while only a toddler. In a well-known anecdote, toddler Ghislaine stood before her mother and declared, "Mummy, I exist!"

She was unquestionably her father's favourite, materially indulged and given significant control over his businesses. The Times reported that he did not permit Ghislaine to bring her boyfriends home, or to be seen with them publicly, after she started university.

... so you have a girl whose early years were overshadowed by grief, whose important daddy made her feel important and, from the time she was 15, focused on her while devaluing his wife. He dedicated his new yacht to Ghislaine when she was 20.

She moved to New York straight after Robert's death, making a beeline for the city's high society. She was involved with Epstein by 1993, soon running his household, some of his businesses and much of his social life. Friends of Epstein said "You could say she was pretty much entirely dependent on him. She loves him. He sometimes treats her well, sometimes off-handedly. You could say she sees something of a father in him."

I think it's a high-relief, technicolor version of the old story, in which those of us raised by domineering fathers don't know how to have any other kind of relationships with men. I'm not saying this excuses her. She reduced her visibility by Epstein's side after he was convicted of soliciting a minor - she could have severed the relationship then, but carried on being his "best friend". I imagine she learned from her dad that you can get away with anything if you're clever.

All of Elisabeth's children stayed close to her until she died in 2013. She lived in France and there's no suggestion she had anything to do with Epstein's shenanigans.

There’s no excusing her behaviour. Not ever. There comes a time when you have to accept that you’re an adult who makes your choices (I have that very clearly exampled in my family - 4 siblings, all of us abused by our father is horrific ways. 2 have gone on to abuse their own children. 2 of us have had very lengthy, fucking hard therapy to make sure that never happens in our homes). She’s responsible for her actions as an adult.

However, understanding behaviour can help stop it happening again in the future. If you can explain how someone ended up how they are then hopefully you can protect the next group of women from the next GM.

Women tend to be the safer sex because we’re physically weaker on average, and in particular, weaker than the object of our sexual desire (mostly). So in circumstances where women can get something by being vile and it not needing physical strength, we probably shouldn’t be surprised that a proportion of women are prepared to do that for their own benefit. I’m not sure there’s much evidence that we’re actually nicer on average, and certainly not to the extent we shouldn’t expect a big network of abuse to not include women unless w2omen were actively excluded by the men in the network.

Women have been complicit in the abuse of women, children and slaves throughout history.

Just look at the many millions, male and female, who happily voted for convicted criminal Trump.

Most presumably realise he's a bad man. I assume some of them think, by some twisted calculation, "A real badass president is what America needs".

Others cheerfully admit: "I voted for Trump to make the liberal do-gooders cry."

Nastiness and ill intent are not rare human characteristics.

I agree.
Svengali.
The lure of money & status, etc.

That still sounds awfully like trying to reason away her behaviour and trying to find excuses though.
The likes you wouldn't find if the sexes were reversed.

And when you think of the timing of it all - she hadn’t known Epstein that long. She’d gone to NY to lead her father’s new venture, she had a huge luxury home and a status that was more than she’d ever had before.

Then in a heartbeat it’s all gone. Her dad is presumed dead and the missing money is known about. Suddenly she’s in a flat smaller than she’s ever experience with no income. Along comes Epstein.

He was exactly what she expected the man in her life to be.

I think her genuine life story would be a horrific read. From both “how did she survive that” and from “why would she do that to innocent people” angles. You’ll never hear the true life story though.

I do believe there is an issue around reporting when it comes to the abuse and exploitation of men, especially when committed by a woman.

However, in my line of work there is a stark difference in terms of who the perpetrators are when it comes to the sexual abuse of children. Men are mostly the perpetrators and the numbers are significant enough that a reporting bias is unlikely to shift the numbers of perpetrators to be equal between the sexes, or even close for that matter.