Looking after kids. Working from home

That's the difference between WFH working or not working, OP, but it's a management issue and you need to take it up with them ... not to moan about so-and-so failing to do their job, but more in the vein of customers being neglected, others having to pick up more and so on

I’d say a family friendly work place is one that offers family friendly contracts (eg part time, flexible hours, annualised hours. Tolerant of last minute leave requests etc).

Not one that makes juggling and multi tasking the norm.

This is 100% a management issue. If people are wfh whilst looking after children then it will more than likely show in their work output. If people are regularly unavailable and difficult to get hold of during working hours where it impacts the team then management should be pulling them up on this and using the correct disciplinary and monitoring routes. If the workplace does not have a policy for wfh with children then it can't be surprised when some employees do wfh with children. If they do have a childcare must be used during working hours policy then the workplace and management need to enforce it.

Whilst wfh with children instead of getting childcare is not professional, if people are able to get away with it and management are not enforcing the policy of childcare must be found during working hours then people will take the piss with it. Holiday child care (that covers all week and more than 9-3) in some areas is incredibly difficult (and expensive) to find and there will be people who will do their upmost to avoid having to source it.

But it feels unfair on other staff members who do work their full hours and often have to pick up the slack after 3.30 or whenever.

That would be a disciplinary matter at my workplace, probably leading to losing your job. It would be impossible to do, in reality, though, because the duty manager would be immediately down on you like a ton of bricks. They know what everyone is supposed to be working on and how long it should take and when it should be finished. You can’t possibly stop at 3pm and then decide to pick it up again at 8pm. It would be red flagged straight away at 3pm.

It’s not acceptable, I discovered a person working for me doing child care a few weeks back, and leaving the office early. His work was so behind, he’s now on a tracker and having most hours monitored closely.
mine went to after school and holiday club where they thrived with other children and activities, there’s no way you can be present at work and be looking after children

My place has a policy that if your role is clinical or customer facing you can't be working from home while in sole charge of children under 12, and children can't be in the same room while you are doing clinical work or delivering training, for confidentiality reasons. It's sort of overlooked when people are on admin days, or CPD days, but they are very strict about it. Someone was actually sacked for gross misconduct because a patient complained they had their 5 year old kid in the background while doing an online appointment (which the clinician admitted to, their childcare let them down last min and they didn't want to use up leave). So it really depends on what job you do as to whether it can be accommodated.

These threads pop up occasionally. Honestly you would think no one ever had a baby prior to covid and wfh was a big thing.
You paid for childcare and swapped as many favours as possible with other DMs in the same boat over the school holidays. I worked shortened days so I could pick DS up from school some days as he wasn’t a particular fan of after school club. It cost money and promotion prospects for me during those years, but I never thought it was on my employer to have reduced output as the result of my decision to have a family.

Looking back I should have split things more evenly with DH and that’s one thing I regret, but the few times I tried to wfh when DS was ill with the full consent of my manager ( he always seemed to make a miraculous recovery at important meetings time) it didn’t make me want to do it more regularly as I could neither parent nor work effectively.

I know times have changed and I got in trouble with some younger relatives for agreeing that her employers were right not to let her wfh all week because it was half term ( her DCs are very young and definitely cannot entertain themselves).

I think you need to articulate if/ why it is affecting your job.

If it’s something a lot of people do the likelihood is that it’s accepted by the company and no one will thank you for raising it. If these people are decent at their jobs and are getting their work done, albeit slightly more slowly after 3pm, then the company may not care. A lot of places have more or less accepted this as the price of getting reliable staff who aren’t off sick constantly and know they’ve got a decent deal.

If it’s affecting deadlines or meaning that you can’t get stuff done then mention it to your manager, and see if you can agree what to do. But you need real evidence, like “I was due to meet X deadline but then I didn’t get the data from Y so it had to wait until the next day.” If clients are complaining that things are late or you’re having to pick things up because you can’t get a response then that’s clearly not on.

Or TBH I might just try to structure my own day so that I get the stuff done where I need a response earlier in the day if it makes no difference to you.

It's not employer being dinosaur, it's employees taking the piss!

You can't work and look after your own child at the same time. You are failing one or the other or both. It's the opposite of being family friendly

I think if you don't take your kids to the office with you then you are obviously not allowed to babysit during your working hours.

Being in the house with teen or pre-teen who do their own thing, fine. Husbands are probably more of a bother than your child anyway.

Having a younger one early or later around childcare, also ok.

Anything else should be gross misconduct. You are not working and neglecting the child. Just lazy parenting and poor work ethic.

It does piss me off because these idiots are ruining it for everybody else who is working efficiently from home, or who can manage holiday by saving on the commuting time. Holiday clubs often start later or finish earlier, but if you can log in immediately instead of commuting for an hour or so, it's absolutely manageable while going in the office wouldn't.

Exactly

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but why should they? I’m sure most companies will allow some leave in exceptional circumstances though. Can you imagine if you worked in a small company with say 6 employees, and three of these were parents and they all needed time off because their child was ill. That would be potentially 50% of their staff off at the same time.

Depends on company policy. Where i work, childcare is expected whether you are in the office or not. I went back to work when ds was 6 months. No one worked from home then so if ds was sick it was carers leave or annual leave.

it’s completely acceptable at my work.

So is caring for elderly relatives.

Childcare is expected for pre schoolers but once at school - school runs etc is fine.

As long as the work gets done we support a flexible family friendly workplace.

not all employers are dinosaurs 🦕

For me there is quite a clear cut line- working with an under 5 in the house shouldn’t be happening on a regular basis. Equally teens are basically fine. I think the grey area is primary. Year 5/6 probably not an issue- reception to year 2 potentially a problem.

I take my lunch during pick up/drop off and my DS watches TV whilst I finish up for the day but that is because he can reliably entertain himself. I would not do it with my 2yr old.

I plan out the holidays as the 6yr can not be expected to entertain himself for 8+hrs

When that’s the case no one notices that they’re doing it…….

I think that approach is also part of the problem. If there’s a non standard arrangement in place, be open about it. Doesn’t need to be the reasons why, but it’s the same as telling colleagues when you’re taking leave. You don’t just vanish away, you communicate. Be that out of office, or working hours marked in diary, or email signature or whatever.

Yeah that's unfair of course. But its a perk of WFH i guess?

I think it depends on the ages. It’s not really allowed where I work, but I had a manager who picked his child up from school at half 3 two days a week. But the child was a well behaved 9 yr old - all he needed was an adult in the house really, and was perfectly capable of understanding dad is working, so do any homework and entertain yourself. My manager was never uncontactable, and had meetings after half 3 without his son interrupting.
A baby, toddler, or a young primary school child is very different I think.

Personally, if their output is the same, work is getting done and performance is not impacted then I would turn a blind eye. A lot of families are under financial pressure and we have cut back using holiday clubs massively because of the cost. If they are otherwise good employees it is worth being flexible to retain them.

I used to work for a company that offered WFH, but stopped allowing us due to two women who “worked” from home with babies/toddlers and no carers whilst doing no work. When confronted (one of their clients couldn’t reach them all day) one of them had the cheek to complain “you don’t know how hard it is to take care of a baby!” and let slip that she didn’t have a child minder at home on her WFH day despite our WFH contract language stating that you had to have one.

Now I work for a company that is very flexible about WFH, but I don’t work with anyone who has little ones. I’ve used it to help out my sister, when she’s gone on holiday or taking one of her children to a sport tournament, but her children are old enough to be self-sufficient but not old enough to stay by themselves overnight. I do have one colleague who was reprimanded for abusing her WFH because she kept claiming she needed to be there for her child, a 16 year old neurotypical footballer, a head taller than his mother, who “needed” (according to her) to be dropped off & picked up at the school 2 blocks away from her home.

I do think a lot of people aren't really aware of the myriad different arrangements people have with their employer though. As I said, only two people in my organisation know my arrangements as they're informal and flexible. Someone could very easily not be able to catch me on x day afternoon and assume I was taking the piss as it's the same every week. But it's arranged, agreed, and I still work my full hours.

What I do think maybe we need more of is people making it clear when they're available and unavailable. I always have my out of office on I'm not available stating when I will be, and my signature has my loose working hours, and I notice it in the emails from people from external agencies too.