To ask for opinions on varicella vaccine vs natural immunity?

A colleague of mine nearly lost his daughter to CP complications. Something to do with her heart, she had to have major surgery and things were touch and go for weeks while she was in hospital. She had to continue to be monitored for years after. It blows my mind that some people go out of their way to expose their children to this risk, even more so when for £150 you can avoid it, and even more so now it’s free!!! I cannot see that the NHS would be rolling this out if it was better to catch it naturally - they’d be encouraging pox parties rather than telling people to stay off school/nursery while they’ve got it.

on a less serious but very annoying note my sister had to cancel meeting up with me more than once when I was pregnant because she hadn’t had her kids vaccinated and thought they might have it (they didn’t). One of them then came down with it 2 days after they’d met my newborn. I was very worried about whether he might catch it (he didn’t). Her kids then took turns to have it so once one was recovered the other got it, so she had one of them at home for about 4 weeks.

I wouldn’t actively seek for my child catch chickenpox.
but depends on their age whether to vax against it, are they still young enough to catch it in childcare setting. My DC caught it last year (aged 3) and for us it was just like any other illness. Started with a high temperature, by day 3 she was okay. She was actually a lot more ill with a stomach / sickness bug later last year.
I caught it age 12 and had a secondary throat infection, was off school for 2-3 weeks.

My current feelings towards the MMRV vaccine roll-out… healthcare providers don’t tell you there’s 2 times higher risk of seizures with the MMRV as opposed to the MMR and separate varicella vaccine. Especially for kids 2 and under (the age mostly receiving it at routine vaccination appointments). If your kids are older (4+) and can get it then you can choose what you’d rather go for! For me, with my second having an on-going adverse reaction after his 3 month immunisations, we are going to pay privately for MMR and will decide later about varicella.

100% get the vaccine. We didn’t for my eldest and it wasn’t nice seeing her so uncomfortable. She didn’t have a particularly serious case (age 18 months) but had a mark on her face for ages afterwards and I was worried it was a permanent scar. Paid for the vaccine for my youngest as soon as he was old enough.

The thing is - when we moved over here, I would absolutely never have got DS1 the jab. I thought it was a ridiculous overkill, and obviously chicken pox is fine because it's a perfectly normal thing, everyone gets it. I fully assumed DS1 would, and when his German doctor said don't worry we'll catch him up if he hasn't had it by 14, I was relieved and thought how sensible. I still thought there was a reasonable chance he'd catch it.

I remember checking him for pock marks any time there was an outbreak at nursery or among one of his friends/family. I knew all about putting a sock with some oats in a bath to make them comfortable. But somehow over the next 6 years I changed my mind, I suppose just living the experience where there are no outbreaks, I'm never checking the DC for anything like that, maybe HFM? But that's over fairly quickly. It's just not a worry ever, and it seemed like a complete no brainer, I was really happy for DS2 to get it. I didn't notice any difference to the standard MMR DS1 had, either.

It's mad because if I went by my feelings now, I'd say I can't imagine having to deal with chicken pox and I can't imagine refusing the jab. But those two things seemed perfectly normal and rational to me 13 years ago! I can remember having that opinion, I just don't remember really what it was like because it's been overwritten by my more recent experience. It is weird how quickly your views can change.

Actually I have to correct my previous post. There was one case in DS1's secondary school about three years ago. He hadn't caught up on the vaccine yet and I considered keeping him home because the school sent out an email to warn parents and let them know in case their DC weren't vaccinated. IIRC it was when masking and wide open windows were still standard practice because of COVID. As it happened, his doctor could fit him in for the jab and said that would be fine. He didn't catch anything, I don't know if any other pupils at school did. That is still the only time in 13 years I've ever heard of a chicken pox case here.

Having seen how ill my youngest was with chicken pox, I’d 100% get the vaccine if I had the option (we’d been due to pay for it privately but it always felt like there was a reason to delay). It was horrific, I wouldn’t risk it when there is a way of hopefully avoiding it for free. My eldest had it very mildly in comparison, you just can’t tell how it’s going to go.

I paid for both my kids to get the chicken pox vaccine around the age of nine because they hadn’t caught it naturally. Zero regrets.

My granddaughter has chicken pox when she was young . She had it twice more and three bouts of shingles before she was 16 so I don’t think she has life long immunity. Just go for the vaccination.

Knowing what I know now I wish my children had been vaccinated. Two of my three have subsequently had shingles. I know someone who lost a 1 year old to meningitis when they had chickenpox. I know several other children who ended up in hospital with it.

My understanding is that the reason the NHS didn’t previously vaccinate is because exposure to children with chicken pox was beneficial to adults in avoiding shingles and so children were offering some protection (and thus economic protection too) to adults. But now there is a shingles vaccine that isn’t needed anymore so the economics make more sense for vaccinating children. There was always a benefit to vaccinating children but to the NHS there was greater benefit in letting children get infected so as to protect adults (and them in turn when they grew up and their own children got chickenpox).

I was planning on getting my children privately vaccinated so I’m very happy they’ll now get it on the NHS.

Varicella zoster virus infects you (as chickenpox) for life, hiding out in the nerves of your spine for the rest of your life. It reactivates when you are ill or older, as your antibody levels fall over time. Reactivation can cause shingles (zoster), post-herpetic nerve pain, and an increased risk of stroke. VZV reactivations may also contribute to the risk of dementia.

The VZV vaccine is a crippled strain of the virus, originally from a Japanese chickenpox patient. It has key mutations in the genes that help it reactivate. It is therefore less likely (much much less likely) than wild VZV to cause shingles as you age, but it still contains the vital surface gene gE that you need to keep antibody levels up.

I've had chicken pox. I've also had the vaccine at an adult because my natural immunity from toddler chickenpox was low (I got tested at work). I have paid for my toddler to be vaccinated privately. I will get my toddler the MMRV when it comes round on their schedule.

No, good to know!

I paid for mine to be vaccinated - the goal for me is not only immunity as an adult, but also protection from what can (rarely) be a very serious illness as a child. I plan to get mine tested when they are later teenagers to see if they need a booster.

Sorry didn't mean to scare you! It doesn't mean that you will get dementia, it just increases the risk. Even if you've had shingles before it's still worth getting the shingles vaccine if/when you can.

Yes all my kids got the vaccine about 2 as part of the immunisation schedule. I had chicken pox as a child and had it quite mildly. My sister had it really badly. Definitely not something I would risk.

and like others have said too cuts the risk of shingles. It will be interesting to see in 20 years if the shingles rate goes down here. We offer the shingles vaccine to people over 60 currently.

They can do a blood test for chicken pox immunity. You talk as if you only get 1 shot at the vaccine. If your immunity drops off you get a booster. It’s not a big deal. You are talking like catching chicken pox is better somehow? In my opinion, if the vaccine doesn’t stick and your immunity wears off after 20 years it’s likely that immunity from catching it could wear off too in that person.

I paid for DD to have 2 doses of the varicella vaccine privately when she was three.

in your shoes I would take the vaccine dose then if you are worried, pay for a second dose privately.

As the MMRV is being introduced as a default childhood vaccine, the idea will be that once it beds in, the amount of circulating virus in the population will lower dramatically: this will then change the likelihood of your children (and all of us) encountering the virus in future in the wild.

With chickenpox, the “natural virus vs vax” equation isn’t only about serious side effects or the unpleasantness of having the acute virus — but it can also leave permanent scarring. I had it as a child and it was relatively mild: my sister got a nasty dose and still has facial scarring from it that will be lifelong. You can always get a booster for your kids when they are older if you are worried about waning immunity. Scarring can be permanent.

Dementia too? Oh great!

Obviously completely your call. But, My youngest of three didn’t catch CP at nursery and we said by the end of Reception if he didn’t get it we’d vaccinate. Then we put it off and he got CP in yr 1 and ended up quite poorly with some infected pox and needed antibiotics. Meanwhile my youngest two had it in nursery and sailed through. I’d say give yourself a deadline and book it. If I could do it again I’d get him the vaccine. I had a feeling he’d struggle with the pox but I didn’t pay it enough attention.

@BertieBotts A friend of mine from overseas was genuinely horrified when I explained that chickenpox is just rife in children over here! It’s been eliminated there for a long time.

I paid privately for my two, without hesitation. Aside from the potentially nasty complications, the fact it’s an horrible thing to actually have, and time off school/activiries, it can cause facial scarring and if I can avoid that for my child then I will do so. One of DD1’s friends has a large pockmark very obviously on her face from a normal bout of CP.

Get the vaccine, it's a no brainer. After chickenpox, the varicella-zoster virus stays dormant in the body for life. It can reactivate later as shingles which is extremely painful and studies now show increases the risk of dementia down the line.

I paid for it for my second child.
First child had it so severely. And had shingles age 11

I had chicken pox as a child and was quite poorly. Now as an adult I'm terrified of getting shingles, everyone I know who has had shingles has been very poorly.

If you've had shingles, then you've already had chicken pox. So yes, it's too late for the chicken pox vaccine to protect you against dormant varicella.

No, the jab doesn't protect against shingles. You need a shingles jab for that.

I mean if you have had chicken pox then you're automatically high risk for developing shingles. No chicken pox, no high shingles risk.

Australia introduced the vaccine in 2005 so they must have lots of data. Here's one lengthy report if you have time on your hands!
My vote would be for the vaccine. Too late for my DC, one of whom has facial scars from the horrible spots.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9507199/