How are Grammar schools so much better than comprehensives if they get the same funding?

Do you know west Kent? It's not a minority of children travelling a long distance to school. It's quite a lot of them.

It doesn't work like that. Parents will apply to multiple schools. It's not that 1/30 gets a grammar place and 29/30 don't. They'll go to other grammars, some to independents and some to non selective schools probably while staying on waiting lists.

Hmm.. ..

My 3 years older brother passed the 11+ - left school with no exam passes at all.

They'd abolished the 11+ by the time I was in Y6, so I went to a comprehensive school of 2000+ children.

Left with a full complement of O levels, outstanding A levels and have 4 degrees plus a professional qualification.

Same parents.

If Secondary Modern Schools had done what they were supposed to have done along with Technical Schools they would have been successful. I believe they should come back under a different branding and be allocated the children who are a drain/ or not served in mainstream Comprehensive Schools. This along with Technical schools that should be Sponsored and operated by large companies, who in turn would get large 'tax' deductions against profits based on employment numbers. The, new branded Modern Schools should be used to place those children who are destructive to a mainstream environment. This, would also include school refuses who have mental issues but hopefully after support could return to mainstream education. Finally, a Grammar school should be available to any child in the top 25% of the academic ability range regardless of their place of residence. This, meaning we would need to create at least 500 more academically selective schools and give a hand to some struggling Independent schools that could be engaged to help.

I know i will be roundly condemned on here for these views and that there is zero chance of any of this every happening. However, I know there are parents that would campaign for new Secondary Modern schools, if it improved the experience their own children would recieve.

But if there is so much competition then presumably all the parents of children who don't get in also care about education etc etc. And they all end up in the non-grammars.

30 to 1 competition ratios in North London. Clearly a lot of people agree with me.

However (wrt Kent High Schools) kids can and do do very well in these schools… just as they do in the middle sets in Comprehensives.

Parents who care about their childrens education? Don't be so silly.

You were talking about Kent where there very much are "secondary moderns" as the grammar schools take the top 25% (?) of the ability range. A few out of county children taking places at super-selectives does not skew the intake that much.

I agree if we are only talking about the odd super-selective in a county, then, yes, the remaining schools would be pretty comprehensive.

(Same is true for other areas such as Bucks with a "full" grammar system).

Many of the comprehensives (‘high schools’) in full grammar areas have a restricted academic offer though.

E.g much less choice for languages, my friends son had to do the combined science GCSE rather than Triple Science.

They are schools where the top 25% have been diverted to grammar, just as happened with the secondary moderns. But now without woodwork.

Pretty tough if you are a bright kid who had a bit of a fuggy head the day of the test and missed the Pass grade by 2 marks.

Kent no longer has secondary moderns. It has high schools. A rose by any other name...

It depends whether you are in a grammar area like Kent or Bucks. Those aren't super-selective so I think it could be argued that the 'comps' in those areas are 'secondary moderns' in terms of intake.

When you have a school with the top sets sliced off, it can mean fewer opportunities for those who just missed out. They don't get 'the education they are suited to' as maybe they don't get the option to do 2 languages or triple science as there isn't enough call for it. Whereas in her comp, my DD got to do French and Spanish GCSE even though she wasn't 'academic' (Bs and Cs).

There are no "secondary moderns". If you don't go to a grammar, you go to a comprehensive (or an independent). Because some of the grammars are superselective and there's good train service, many students come in from wide distances so I'm not sure the intake of the comprehensives is affected in the way it might have been in the "olden days" when grammars served mainly local students.

That's true but I think a lot of us would like more vocational options available and those schools had expertise in that.

When we were touring secondaries a few years ago (in a fairly affluent part of the SE) some of the DT and food tech rooms were permanently closed and music provision was pathetic.

My son is in his last year at an Essex grammar. He goes to school with children who travel from Chelmsford via the school buses or train. Its very common. KEGS does have higher entry requirements than the Southend grammars.

My son has thrived and it was the best decision we made for him. Don't be fooled that the everyone at grammars are rich. Its quite the opposite and one of the things I love is that my son has been exposed to much more religious/ethnic & social diversity than our local school would offer.

What I will say now is that since the VAT on private schools its much harder to get into the grammars. So please bear that in mind before moving.

Yes. It's strange that nobody ever campaigns to bring back secondary moderns.

And is the secondary modern system equally popular? Or is the grammar system only popular among parents whose children get into the grammar schools?

@Karma1387 I wanted to home ed my own dd but as I’m a teacher I couldn’t 😂 but I’m back with my take on HE as an option.

I did work with a number of HE families ans an tutor and it isn’t all roses. Lots of the kids I knew (not the families I worked with as a tutor) were not being educated really, they were just not being socialised to school or the more usual social expectations and boundaries. Their behaviour was often demanding and entitled. Some of my families had real issues with kids from some of those families at the groups they all went to, because the parents either tended towards permissive or were busy with the younger children (there were always lots) and not really interested in what the older ones were up to. So you may find that not all HE families create an environment where your kids are happy- just as you might in a school.

Secondly cost. Without exception I worked with families where the dad had some high-powered job. This meant the mum could stay at home with the kids and thy could afford the groups and tutors they wanted, to provide the rich and balanced experience they’d envisioned. It’s not cheap even at primary, and then at secondary you need even more tutors and to pay privately to sit exams- the entrance fee but also find and pay an exam centre to allow your child to sit as an external candidate. Round here (despite the high numbers of HE children) those centres are like hens’ teeth and each exam was going to cost over £150 for one family- that was a decade ago so goodness knows what you might pay in another 15 years. If you get to GCSE and can’t afford it, then your kids will face real problems.

Thirdly, while I work with learners now who were badly let down by their schools, I also know HE children who feel just as let down by their family’s choices around education. Many HE children ask to go to school particularly as they get older. They want to be ‘normal’. This often causes their parents great angst, especially if school clashes with their self-image as alternative.

Again, I would suggest to you that you let go of trying to have a path set out for education. Move to somewhere you want to live, because if that’s right, the rest can be worked out when you know more about the situation and your children. If your family is happy, that is a solid base for your children to bloom from. As I said before, check out the availability of SEN provision. There are more and more alternative provision settings stating up, both independent and state, should you need them, and if you want to have a bit of reassurance now I would start there. Even if your kids don’t have additional needs, a lot of the problems in classrooms are caused by unmet needs so the better the provision for that, the better the system for everyone.

And grateful, often affluent parents who will donate to fundraising. The nice buildings some of the grammars have are NOT built with public funds by and large.

I don't disagree with the general sentiment but Kent retains grammar schools because that's what people in the area wanted (you can look at Hansard if you don't believe me) and it was never compulsory to convert them. And the grammars have expanded 30% in pupil numbers over the last couple of decades with no new schools, so they are very, very popular.

The other reason is that the tests include Maths that has not been taught at that stage in the National Curriculum (I am also speaking of the Kent Test). So children need to be taught it - you can be as bright as anything but if it's totally unfamiliar material you'd struggle.

I have one in a grammar and one in a comprehensive. The exam system is stressful and brutal on 9/10 year olds but ultimately, I believe mine are in the best schools for them. The comp is one of the best in the country, my child is living his best life and frankly it is the better run school imho but the grammar is absolutely getting the best academic results for my other child.

As yours are very young and you have two, I would say definitely look for somewhere with a good comprehensive as well as access to grammar otherwise you could end up with one in a grammar but the other faced with a challenging comp. Be aware though that a school can change in ten years!

Give yourselves good choices, don’t put your eggs in one basket.

Riff raff?

I'm from Fenland so I know why you are worried about secondary school options. I would feel the same. Thing is, it is just too early to tell whether a grammar school would be right for your DCs. As a toddler/preschooler I would have said 'Oh yes DC1 is so bright, obviously going to be so academic' but actually they have ADHD and I don't think a grammar school would have been the right environment. I went to a selective state school and had friends who were not ultra academic and always felt as if the school wasn't bothered about them as only the students destined for top universities and prestigious degrees mattered.

Have you thought about south Cambs in general, not just Cambridge? Some good comps there. Or Peterborough? I know it's not the greatest place but at least you then get choice with secondary schools and there is a non-grammar selective state school (best if you are a churchgoer or want to go down that route).