To think Lowe is going to wipe the floor with Farage?

Are you going to comment on my posts that proved from the government itself that there is a definite problem with CSA gangs of Asian heritage and your assertion that most of the gangs are white has not been proven?

Apart from Epstein which really isn't the sort of offender we're talking about in regards to grooming gangs operating in the UK by non-British offenders.

Your 2nd link was a gang who abused one victim, not systematic grooming and abuse of many.

And your 3rd and 4th links were okay, white but not white British but Albanian and Romanian criminal gangs who'd taken adv

Both are idiots. I don’t really care. 🤷‍♀️

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-59435616?post=asset:6883e3b4-0178-4e8e-8be1-9ec3cb88fc04

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0e43nxpepno.amp

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/gateshead-grooming-gang-found-guilty-32673171.amp

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/2126478/romanian-grooming-gang-rapists-jailed?int_source=mantis_rec_top&int_medium=web&int_campaign=more_like_this_top

I've just posted a link you may want to look at.

From the national audit on group-based child sexual exploitation and abuse.

These 2 sentences are very significant:

"Child sexual exploitation is horrendous whoever commits it, but there have been enough convictions across the country of groups of men from Asian ethnic backgrounds to have warranted closer examination."

And : "The system claims there is an overwhelming problem with White perpetrators when that can’t be proved"

I'm not cherry picking as you can read the whole thing but it's very clear in it's entirety that there is enough evidence to suggest men of Asian ethnic backgrounds are significant in the data and nothing to prove white offenders are overwhelmingly represented.

And I'll point out this: From the national audit on group based CSA and abuse dated January this year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-audit-on-group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-and-abuse/national-audit-on-group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-and-abuse-accessible

With particular reference to this:

"The appalling lack of data on ethnicity in crime recording alone is a major failing over the last decade or more. Questions about ethnicity have been asked but dodged for years. Child sexual exploitation is horrendous whoever commits it, but there have been enough convictions across the country of groups of men from Asian ethnic backgrounds to have warranted closer examination.

Instead of examination, we have seen obfuscation. In a vacuum, incomplete and unreliable data is used to suit the ends of those presenting it. The system claims there is an overwhelming problem with White perpetrators when that can’t be proved. This does no one any favours at all, and least of all those in the Asian, Pakistani or Muslim communities who needlessly suffer as those with malicious intent use this obfuscation to sow and spread hatred"

TwelvePiecesOfFlair said,
**
"The grooming/ rape gangs involve mainly the systematic, organised abuse of children over the span of decades, aided and abetted by useful idiots in social services and police and are overwhelmingly made up of networks of men of Pakistani heritage."
**
To which I point out again:
In terms of group-based offences, 85% of suspects are white, while 7% are Asian and 5% are black.

The crimes you quote are horrific and the perpetrators should feel the full force of the law. And yes, in the same way Catholic priests using their positions of power to abuse children had specific circumstances that need addressing, these crimes need to have that aspect understood too.

However, none of that makes it true to say that Pakistani men are more likely to commit these crimes than any other ethnic group.

I think most of us would agree. Far anything isn't great. They almost meet in the middle.

I would be interested to know which particular bit(s) of my post you disagree with.

All of those are not immutable and will change over time, just as they have done up until this point.They are a reflection of the society and period of history that we live in - nothing more.

My feelings exactly! The man couldn’t run a bath without help.

I absolutely agree that victims have been badly let down and that needs to be dealt with. And yes, there was a particular issue with how the Pakistani gangs were not held accountable as they should have been. But that is not the same thing as saying that the grooming gangs are overwhelmingly Pakistani.
As i pointed out, that article denotes “group offences” as 2 or more. So it could just be 2. It also notes around half are child on child. When people reference “ the grooming gangs” they are specifically talking about the Pakistani origin, organised gangs. But you know this.
That's not the same as saying “ most group rape activities are perpetrated by Pakistanis” . It’s stating that there is a known phenomenon of these men from a particular culture treating girls in a certain way. If you were a working class person from Keighley or Dewsbury or Oldham you would know this, because you would know victims.
My point was that the far right are doing so well in terms of public support because successive governments refuse to act.

Well legally they are entitled to, and unless that changes, they’re going to - so whether they have to or not isn’t really the question. We can either create safe and legal passage, and an asylum system that works, or carry on shouting about boats.

Do you have any other international laws and protections you’d like to get rid of? Rights of the Child? Human Rights? War Crimes?

Post the links here about them.

I don't think anyone is denying it happens but could easily point out where Race played a factor in either the actual abuse or the way the authorities reacted to it.

It doesn't mean one or another is worse, it just means there are specifics.

But go ahead, post the links. It's important everyone knows. But also understands the differences.

I'll have to Google him, I don't know who he is.

How is Elon Musk buying the UK?
That sounds worrying

I thought he supported Advance but I guess I got that wrong

I haven't noticed the right wingers expressing much concern about their mate Donald Trump either, despite the multiple allegations of rape and his own boasting about sexual assault. Quite the contrary, they seem to admire the guy.

Looking at the percentages quoted in my post:
85% of suspects are white, 82% of the England and Wales population is white

So there are more white offenders than would be expected as a percentage.

while 7% of suspects are Asian, 9% of the England and Wales population is Asian.

So there less Asian offenders than would be expected as a percentage.

I'm not sure how you think per capita is going to change the picture.

Hmm, note how right wingers never have much to say about white grooming gangs, white rapists / paedo's. Has he worked tirelessly to highlight their abuse too?

They don't 'have' to arrive at all.

And international law is a joke. It is not fit for purpose when only a handful of countries actually abide by it and those that do are deliberately exploited and disadvantaged by those that don't. Time to ignore it when it suits us, just like almost everyone else.

Who said it was specifically Asian and Pakistani gangs they're only worried about?

I don't think anyone did but the constant deflectors from it disturb me.

Are you concerned about this?

Where Religion and culture was used to rape girls not from that demographic?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-30078503.amp

"The court heard some were persuaded to have sex with other gang members as they were told by the gang it was Somali "culture and tradition" and "men always have sex with each other's girlfriends"..

What about Laura Wison, a 17 year old deemed to be the 1st UK white girl a victim of 'honour killing'.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/29/canal-murder-mother-not-prevented

The Judge said her murderer "treated white girls as sexual targets and not as human beings".

Her sister Sarah was systematically raped and abused by Asian men for years from the age of 11 . At one point her Mother went to the Police with her mobile phone which had the numbers of 177 adult Asain men who were involved in raping her and other girls.

https://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/rotherham/index.html

No, its not all Asian or Pakistani grooming gangs or Muslim but many of the perpetrators used similar Religious and cultural reasons for coercing the girls into being raped by other men and yes, there are White perpetrators but when Religion and culture is used to groom and rape girls do you not think that is quite specific and needs to not be filed away under 'well white men groom and rape, stop being racist talking about the non-white ones'.

You said,

"The grooming/ rape gangs involve mainly the systematic, organised abuse of children over the span of decades, aided and abetted by useful idiots in social services and police and are overwhelmingly made up of networks of men of Pakistani heritage."

To which I point out again:
In terms of group-based offences, 85% of suspects are white, while 7% are Asian and 5% are black.

I absolutely agree that victims have been badly let down and that needs to be dealt with. And yes, there was a particular issue with how the Pakistani gangs were not held accountable as they should have been. But that is not the same thing as saying that the grooming gangs are overwhelmingly Pakistani.

It is reasonable to want people to be held accountable for crimes they have committed. It is not reasonable to describe one ethnicity as being overwhelmingly responsible for committing a crime when they are actually only a small percentage of the perpetrators of that crime.

Thank you for your polite debate.

We are not going to agree.

Very well said - you raise excellent and valid points that are largely ignored

Many of the Asian grooming gang perpetrators have now been prosecuted. Yes, the girls should have been listened to much, much earlier and it's shocking that these crimes were allowed to continue for so long. But it isn't unique.

The Epstein survivors were dismissed for many years as well. These issues have been known about for many years. Why is the FBI only investigating now, and why have no other men faced prosecution yet?

The fact is, the only person currently serving a prison sentence in relation to Epstein's extensive trafficking operation is a woman.

Mandelson isn't being investigated in relation to the trafficking of women at all, but in relation to misconduct in a public office due to the leaking of confidential government documents.

You can try to argue that Asian men have been allowed to get away with rape and abuse in a way that white men haven't, but the facts simply don't support this.

This is a problem of misogyny, not of race. Women and girls raising concerns about abuse have been systematically dismissed and ignored for many decades, regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrators. Think back to the whole "me too" movement. This is not just about brown men.

Theres an active FBI investigation. Maxwell is in prison. Mandelson is under police investigation. The files have been released (albeit more redacted than most of us would like).

There isn’t the same fear of discussion as there has been around the Asian rape gangs is my point. There isn’t the same level of denial either.

Any group or demographic attacking children needs to be called out.