To think male nursery workers should be banned for safety reasons?

Women’s work is always low status, it’s the patriarchy. As soon as a job traditionally done by men becomes women’s work the pay drops, and vice versa. Now I agree this shouldn’t happen, but the reality in this world is that it has and does.

Secondly, if only women are doing intimate care for old/disabled MEN they are going to seriously damage their backs. Lifting heavy men is why nurses often end up needing knee replacements, back surgeries and have a high rate of disability before age 50 - and therefore die in elder poverty.

It’s such a sound bite to say better pay, conditions, training and respect but you have to know that is like saying a fairy godmother will bring you a rainbow unicorn for your birthday. It’s not ever going to happen. Because the state and families will never ever be able to pay high wages for this work. The higher the costs of care, the more women are coerced into dropping out of the workforce to provide unpaid care to family members- including children.

It’s already happening due to the exorbitant costs of nursery/daycare.

If men are banned from this sort of work simply because they are more likely to abuse, then we will see the gender pay gap widen and women’s employment rights eroded.

Abuse will still happen to the children, disabled and elderly because women also offend albeit at lower rates.

Safeguards is the better, cheaper option. You’d need to improve them anyway, because you’d still have victims of abuse.

☝️ excellent point!

I'm torn on this subject as a mother of sons, one of whom did a placement in a nursery and went on to become a nurse. They had safeguarding procedures in place, he wasn't allowed in the toilets with the toddlers and he was given one boy to be responsible for nappy changes in the main room. He was absolutely adored by the children and I can guarantee that he was of no harm to them but it did bother me what the parents might think about him choosing to be there as its unusual for a teenage boy and, although those measures were in place there were occasions that he came back and told me things that I was uncomfortable with........ but only because of him being put in a position where he could be accused of doing something wrong. Eg he was left alone most nights with one little girl who was always last to be picked up, he read books to her whilst looking out of the window for her parent which she would run to him for. I don't think the nursery was well run and i was glad when he finished although I never said any of this to him as i didn't want to make him feel uncomfortable.

So I fully agree with @JemimaTiggywinkles the managers/owners of these businesses should be held to greater account.

Do you ever wonder why women want to work in a nursery? Because those are the same reasons that most men in the sector want to, too.

Then the solution is to make it easier to stay home during this period. That's a social issue.

I have a son and feel it is part of my role to teach him the realities of the world - including that there are sick disturbed people of both sexes in the world and what statistics tell us about different offending rates, and what statistics do and don't mean. And that also includes that he happens to fall into the sex class that has higher offending rates in these type of crimes, just as I fall into the sex class with higher rates of different crimes. And to take that understanding into choosing his job and in understanding why parents make the safe guarding decisions they do - rather than getting his feelings hurt. In reality I think you'll find less men arguing against banning men in childcare than you do women.

Yeah, I've heard that. I'm not sure if they have the same 'right' to request a female as someone requesting same sex though.

I'd hope it's simply because they think women are nicer in general but there could be an element of being pervy when they just might fancy the female carer or ',enjoy' her touching him.

That would be ideal sure, but not always possible for parents who need to work.

That would mean caring for (unrelated) babies and toddlers would become, officially and legally, “women’s work.”

Most road accidents involve cars, maybe we should ban them all too?

I've often wondered WHY a man wants to work in a nursery, the cycnic in me always thinks it's for an ulterior motive, I know it's not all men but it's something that has never sat right with me..

I don't think banning men is the answer. And I'm not naive to the risks of SA - there are two young girls in my extended family (that I know of) who have been SA by teenage or adult men. But there are benefits to having positive male role models in young children's lives, and to living in a society where childcare isn't seen as "women's work" (because despite @101SpottyDogs idealism, work that is seen as the preserve of women - nursing, teaching, working on reception, home care, cleaning etc - is generally stigmatised and devalued in terms of pay. I don't want to live in a society where childcare is even more devalued than it currently is.
I think the answer is better parental leave so that parents actually have a choice about whether to use nurseries for their non-verbal children. And properly staffing early years settings with better ratios and better paid, more highly trained staff. It's insane to me that those caring for some of the most vulnerable people in society are poorly trained and paid minimum wage, while many people who do nothing of any real value are paid ££££. If there were enough staff to ensure that nobody was alone with a child for any length of time then there would be no opportunity for abuse. But that would require proper investment in the sector.
At my DC's nursery, two small things they do to reduce the risk is that the changing table is in a very visible location, and if nappy cream needs to be applied then 2 members of staff need to agree that it's necessary and sign it out almost like it's a controlled drug. But, we pay over the odds for a setting that pays its staff well, so has good retention and doesn't struggle to recruit, so it's very well staffed. In a nursery that's struggling with staffing that probably isn't possible.

Don't roll the dice at all. Stay home with your children rather than leave them in the care of strangers. It's always a gamble, male or female.

I also think that a blanket ban like this would leave to more complacency which wouldn’t necessarily protect children anyway. it’s complacency which is often the cause of the issues.

I work in early years. I think my colleagues are great but I’m not daft enough to think that means there is zero risk because that’s when complacency sets it. Much better to report and be found wrong than to ignore and be found right

I don’t give a shit whether it’s more likely for a man to abuse my child in nursery when I know that there are cases of sadistic female staff. I don’t want to simply reduce risk, I want my kid to actually be safe.
the way to achieve that is through increased safeguarding protocols are such as making sure there are at least two adults in the room at any time, not allowing phones on site and the various other interventions which are proposed.
Banning men would have numerous negative impacts including perpetuating misogynistic ideas about who has to do the childcare and bumwiping. We can do better than this.

You’ll likely be flamed for this opinion, as MN in particular seem to have a large bunch who really take offence at this topic.. however, I’m in complete agreement with you.

I have no issue with male primary school teachers etc (no toileting support needed and the child is usually fully verbal and able to flag concerns etc by this age) but feel VERY uncomfortable with the idea of a man having unsupervised access to babies/young toddlers private parts whilst changing nappies/supporting with toileting etc, so much so we refused to have a male nursery worker do any toileting/changing for our 2 year old twin daughters- our children, our choice and the nursery respected this.

sadly CSA is disproportionately more likely to be carried out by a man than a woman, and whilst I totally agree it’s ’not all men’ we weren’t willing to roll the dice on those odds when our children are at such a vulnerable age.

Most men are NOT bad. The problem is that the ones volunteering for nursery work are much more likely to be.

If you're going to make such an inflammatory statement as that, you need to back it up. Where's your proof that men volunteering for nursery work are doing so with the intent of committing abuse?

Okay.

Rephrase that with “more important than some girl’s feelings,” and see how comfortable you feel?

Having seen the effects on young men of being automatically suspected because of nothing more than being male, I developed a sympathy for why there is a problem with young men becoming drawn into the 'manosphere'. I started to sympathise with these men in a way I never thought I would. Yes, there are problems, tarring all men with suspicion is not the solution.

There's another solution. Stay home with your own young kids yourself. That's what I did. If we want to protect children, why not make this an easier option for those who feel they can't afford to make that choice?

DH was DD's primary carer for 4 years while I built my career. I'm glad MIL and FIL raised him well to know that childcare is the work of both parents, not just the woman.

Women are statistically much more likely to murder children under the age of 1 than men (known as infanticide). Maybe women shouldn’t be allowed to look after children under 1.

Preventing infanticide is the absolute priority.

I already did in my 1st post. You hate men it appears.

Agreed. Call me a bigot. I'd rather be called a bigot than be responsible for facilitating one of these perverse monsters.