To think male nursery workers should be banned for safety reasons?

I have a son and I completely agree with the OP.

I would never, ever leave my children with a man I don't know. Men are statistically proven to be more of a danger to both women and children than women are.
It's so idealistic and frankly disgusting that many on this thread would rather have a "male role model" in the nursery (when it's factual that many pedophiles seek out these settings to offend, so how can you be sure you're looking at a good 'male role model') than want to protect their baby/toddler against the risks.

Another sensible post, backed up by stats. Thank you.

My DP is a primary school teacher and this thread is so depressing to read. He chose to teach primary over secondary because a headteacher whose advice he sought – a woman – told him that primaries were woefully lacking male teachers and that it was good for children with absent fathers to have male role models, so he could make a positive contribution. Decades on, he has done exactly that. But according to this thread, he must've been drawn to working with younger kids because he's a pervert with a secret agenda, purely because he's a man. 😡

Here are a couple of possibly uncomfortable questions. I don’t intend to minimise cruelty and neglect towards children. It’s disgusting and those women truly deserve what they get.

But firstly, women make up the vast majority of early years workers, and you’ve identified three female early years workers convicted of abuse and neglect. Men make up a tiny proportion of early years workers yet I think, since Christmas, I’ve read about three different convictions of men for sex abuse in nurseries. Certainly two.

Secondly, is cruelty and neglect as serious as rape and sexual abuse? Are they crimes of equivalent magnitude?

I deal with LA safeguarding referrals for our organisation.

The trend for referrals of all types for EYFS & KS1 is women, and it becomes increasingly more likely to be a man the older the child is.

Referrals for female staff generally involve negligence that has lead to injury, for male staff (particularly at secondary level) it tends to be misuse of force, or use of physical discipline such as pulling a child back into a classroom.

SA has never crossed my desk, abuse of other forms does - and combatting it according to this thread would involve just banning education staff.

Yes, impossible in other words.

Except that we do know that men are vastly more likely to be paedophiles than women, and that paedophiles seek out opportunities to work with children, and that only a tiny % of nursery workers are men.

If you eliminated all males from working in nurseries statistically speaking some of those will be paedophiles, and there would be a negligible impact on the workforce overall.

I dont think so, I imagine abusers hide it pretty well and try to blend in

Childcare jobs, and club leaders, sports coaches, churches etc etc. Anywhere there is access to children. Do you propose we ban men from ever having any position where they can be around children. The “studies” are bullshit and to suggest paedophiles don’t target women so they can have access to children in a family is laughable. Familial abuse isn’t about opportunism, but even if it were, it accounts for over 90% of abuse so if you want to protect children, we should be banning men from homes, because that would be far more effective.

You keep talking about risk, but let’s put that into perspective. There are approximately 2.5 million children currently in nurseries. The number of male nursery workers is about 11,000. If they were so big a risk that they should be banned from taking the job, there would be stories like this happening every single day. It would be an epidemic. 60% of all abuse of children in nurseries is carried out by men. That leaves 40% that isn’t. What is the solution when women do it? And what is the actual number of children who are abused in nurseries? Bizarrely these figures aren’t collected, but it is fair to say the risk of it happening is very low generally.

We need to improve safeguarding for all children in all settings being looked after by everyone. No person should ever be with a child alone, there is absolutely no need for that. We need to improve the vetting system because frankly the disclosure process is laughable.

I feel really sorry for any guy working in nurseries at the moment. Every one of them will be being looked at as if they are paedophiles.

Some people are not suited to look after children. We should focus on individuals rather than deciding that one aspect of a person precludes them from the job.

Agree. It’s odd how the focus is only on CSA. There are many other forms of child abuse including neglect. We can’t really say it’s overwhelmingly men when we are only looking at 8% of all child abuse.

I’m not labouring this point all night, as it’s not the point of the thread.

However, is OP was considering children of both sexes as equal importance in this discussion she wouldn’t have said “men & boys' feelings,” she’d have said “anyone’s” feelings.

There was no reason to clearly state that boys feelings don’t matter, if the thread and concern applies to both.

Of course not.

Just like there isn't an easy way to spot the difference between young women who just loves kids and those young women who end up physically abusing them which we've also had far, far too many cases of lately.

Yeah I'm glad I'm not just thinking badly of men. Well I am but for good reason.

It's probably as easy as spotting women who love kids vs. women who love abusing kids.

I agree but I don’t think anyone said that, did they?

Nope

I agree - male children are as much at risk as female. More in some settings.

Is there an easy way to spot the difference between a man who just loves kids and a man who just loves abusing kids?

Yes, I have sons too, and I’ve really never found these conversations difficult. I’ve talked to them about why women who don’t know them might be scared of them and why they need to give women space when walking at night, for example. They haven’t as far as I know declared their feelings very very hurt and turned to the manosphere.

There definitely is a pervy element to it.

Nurseries are for babies up to age 3-4. There is plenty of time for children to be exposed to “male role models” after that, even the ones who don’t have any male family members. It’s hardly like a 2 year old is going to see a male nursery worker and think “wow, so childcare work isn’t only for women”.

The priority should be children’s safety and a load of whataboutery saying that women abuse too, kids can be abused by family members, older kids can be abused…yes no one is saying that banning men from nurseries will stop all paedophiles, but it would eliminate some easy opportunities for a large number of them.

Nice men who just love working with kids can become a nanny (for those families who are fine with it) or an early years primary teacher or run beavers or something, and be a great male role model for children who might actually have some consciousness about what that would mean.

The men who genuinely want to work with children will want to work with them for similar reasons as to why women who genuinely want to work with children work with them.

I would bet money that incidents of SA in a nursery setting are far lower than deliberate acts of cruelty and neglect. There are a similar number of high profile cases involving female workers mistreating children in their care, like Roksana Lecka, Aini Berrington and Kimberley Cookson, as there are male workers charged with sexual offences. Is the answer banning vicious young women of a certain age from looking after pre-school children? Of course not. The answer, as other PP have said, is more stringent safeguarding in these settings so no worker of either gender can commit crimes against children.

No I quite agree, raising sons involves teaching them to be better.

I do however think that saying a conversation about child abuse isn’t about male children (boys) is a step too far.

My DH was also a SAHD so doesn't think that childcare is a woman's job in a family. But he also understands concerns with male nursery workers. Like me he is conflicted but agrees that overall the risks are too high.

Totally fine. I don’t understand what you’re getting at. Children’s safety trumps other people’s feelings.

I agree. I would vote with my feet. I would take my child out of a nursery if they employed men