To think the way MN lets anti trans extremists hijack a tragedy is pretty despicable

Completely false. Trans identified men in the UK are more likely to be murderers than to be murdered.

Let’s remember the names of those killed by this trans identified young man:

Kylie Smith

Abel Mwansa

Zoey Benoit

Ticaria Lampert

Ezekiel Schofield

Shannda Aviugana-Durand

Emmett Jacobs

Jennifer Jacobs/Strang

RIP, all

So bring on the discussion, bring on the naming and the shaming, bring on the finger-pointing. It's the only way to honour the victims' memories.

I'm not using this event to campaign for anything.

You came on here complaining that accurately describing the murderer was "spewing trans hate". You are absolutely using this horrible mass murder to try to campaign to shut down honest reporting and prioritise a mass murderer's self image over, well, everything.

If he'd been an immigrant to Canada and the news at large was swearing he was a born national, if he'd had red hair and the media was swearing it was black, if he was 6'6" and the media was swearing he had dwarfism, you'd get a lot of people responding with "not true, why are you lying about a plain objective fact"? It's a very reasonable question and warrants discussion.

He was a man and the media are swearing blind he was a woman. Why are we the exploitative arseholes for asking why they're lying, but you're the good guy for trying to shut this down as "hate"?

Yes, well I thought and think it entirely respectful to focus in the days after my cousin's murder on violent and homophobic working class men (he was a nonviolent, gay, working class man), and took and take a dim view on the 'oh the poor traumatised men, they were heterosexual' set.

So your response to the murder of someone close to you is very different from mine. Horses for courses.

It’s you genderist extremists that have hijacked the tragedy, OP.

All the blatant lies from MSM and the Canadian police about the psychotic young man who’s destroyed so many lives being “female” or a “woman”, to the point that they make that a central point of their press conferences, actually “correcting” those who quite correctly refer to him as “he”.

Making “respect” for this mass murderer’s “identity” more important than accurate reporting of the tragedy is utterly, utterly disrespectful to his victims, as well as the general public.

Those of you who support this vile, bigoted ideology don’t seem to have grasped, despite the huge number of “trans” mass shooters (for such a tiny percentage of the population) that you are actually enabling and colluding with male violence: you are making the world a less safe place for everyone.

This grievance culture you’re so eager to foster, where abusive men see themselves as in true DARVO style as the most put-upon victims in the whole world, is DANGEROUS.

We shouldn’t be telling confused, aggressive boys/young men that yes, they’re really girls/women and supporting their deluded sense of entitlement. We should be making sure they’re given the appropriate MH treatment to help them accept reality and live comfortably with it - and in the cases of the most violent, like this one, we should be reading the warning signs and not letting them anywhere near guns.

All the fetishisation of this “most vulnerable/marginalised” identity is beyond harmful. There are so many instances of these boys and men posing with guns, wearing or posting slogans that like” arm trans people”, “kill the terf”, “punch terfs” etc etc, and it’s justified by this pretence that TIMs really are constantly under attack and just need to defend themselves.

And you are just adding to this culture.

Shame on you.

We should indeed be focusing on the real victims here - the women and children murdered in cold blood by this trans identified young man. The latest casualties among the huge numbers of women and children harmed by genderist ideology in myriad ways.

My thoughts are with Maya Gebala, fighting for her life against the odds, and her family, and the cruelly bereaved families of all the victims; as well of course as the others he injured and the small community of Tumbler Ridge that has been so devastated by his violence.

What do you mean 'mine doesnt have to wait'. I'm not using this event to campaign for anything.

In the same way as if the person was an immigrant, or a particular ethnicity or whatever I wouldn't think it was respectful for the same day for people to using that to complain about immigration. And for those claiming this is an innocent discussion, there's been pretty much daily anti trans threads on Mumsnet this week, with many of the same posters and the same theme - blame an entire cohort of people and declare them all evil/mentally ill/perverts/child abusers/misogynists/threats to women.

Anyway I'll leave this thread because honestly it just makes me sad that theres so many people on this forum who think that this is the right way to go about things. I don't believe for a second that everyone posting about the trans stuff here actually gives a shit about the children who have been killed, however much you claim to be motivated by 'safeguarding'.

When my cousin was murdered (nearly half a century ago, before gender identity had been invented) I wanted a steely focus on the perpetrators, the society that produced them, the touchy-feely 'be-kinders' and the justice system that cared more about the perpetrators than about their victims.

I still do.

I'm sick of mumsnet being a one issue website

This is absolute nonsense.

This is a huge board with thousands of topics.

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting it?

But yours doesn't have to wait, is that right? How curious. Maybe you can also explain why the victims families would give one single shit that their child's murderer was been referred to as a man on mumsnet?

Yeah dude, I'm the one trying to control the discussion

Well of course you are; you're literally complaining about it and telling us, repeatedly, that you're leaving because of it (oh no!). If you're not doing this to try to control discussion, what exactly is the purpose? Is this just what we have to expect from "I sit on threads because they bore me so much" people?

There are plenty of threads that don't mention transgenderism, most of them actually, and it isn't beyond the wit of a reasonably intelligent person to guess that this wasn't going to be one of them. If they're not good enough for you, it sounds as if you have plenty of other places to go and be exciting and superior on, so... go there?

Well no one is going to give you a policy on it, but common decency would suggest maybe not start while the bodies are still warm.Though please continue to pretend that your campaign is so important it can't wait.

We've been trying for years to have this discussion, before there are bodies at all, to be preventative, and always got told to shut up then too. This is what the American gun lobby does too. Shuts people up before there's a tragedy and then when there is, tells everyone it's insensitive to say it now.

When is an appropriate time for truth?

Do you not think spreading a patent lie that benefits nobody except the deluded ego of the gunman himself while the bodies are still warm is against common decency?

Do you not think complaining that accurately describing a murderer as a man is "spewing trans hate" while the bodies are still warm is against common decency?

Yeah dude, I'm the one trying to control the discussion here not the people who plop onto half of the threads to give the same tired speeches about transpeople 🙄

The drama of it all. I don't like it very much here any more so more and more I am posting elsewhere. I don't give a fuck about transpeople. I'm sick of mumsnet being a one issue website. I was giving my opinion on the OP, not trying to control you ffs.

Or perhaps we focus on trying to reduce the chances that other people will be victims and other families grieve? Because if we are to have a hope of preventing such things in future an understanding of why they happen and what leads a person to these actions is crucial.
A young woman and a TIM who has identified as a woman for 4 years are very different. They will have different life experiences, different challenges and different priorities. If they have mental health issues they will likely be rooted in different causes, manifest in different ways and they will have recieved different interventions.
How can we consider what may lead people to such acts if we refuse to acknowledge and name an important element of their person, and falsely place them within a different demographic to which they don't belong?

It's curious how anyone who isn't an ally is always accused of hate, I don't see posts on MN saying they hate trans people, or that they want to hurt them, just that they don't want them in single sex spaces. The TRA seem to hate us but we've committed the crime of saying No and there's plenty of men who can't hear that word

For me it's not the fact they were trans, it's the fact they were male.

What I think is wrong is that gender ideology means we are recording male crimes as female crimes.

I'm not using it as a "gotcha" that a trans person did something bad. I believe most trans people are ordinary decent people, just like I believe most males are ordinary decent people. However, more males than females commit crimes like mass murder and rape and it's important that this is recorded accurately.

This was a horrific and tragic crime, committed by a very mentally unwell man. Not by a woman.

And I firmly believe and always will do (irrespective of whether even on MN you’re ‘allowed’ to say this) that thinking you’re born in the wrong body is a mental illness. And ‘affirming’ that is harmful. So yes. We will talk about it, and yes, I do believe sadly that tragedies like this will happen if people are not given the appropriate mental health support.

And once again, for those of the hard of understanding: it is not trans hatred to believe that (I) you can’t change biological reality, and (ii) that women and girls’ spaces should be just for biological women and girls.

Why do you think that pointing out this individual is a male who needed high level mental health support is 'spewing trans hate'?

Seriously, why?

Well no one is going to give you a policy on it, but common decency would suggest maybe not start while the bodies are still warm.
Though please continue to pretend that your campaign is so important it can't wait.

Those who claim the victims won't see this stuff, you do realise these kind of conversations get shared around social media, picked up by the media etc? No one is saying you can't spend your life spewing anti trans hate if that's your thing, just to have a bit of respect at not hijacking this situation so insensitively.

Then I guess you also object to the proper and realistic characterisation of the Pakistani rape gangs?

So... go and do it? We're not stopping you. Although you're trying to control discussion here. You're about the 500000th poster I've seen this week on a thread about something they claim to be bored of and uninterested in. It's hardly surprising you lot get bored so much if you seek out and engage with the stuff that bores you.

Obviously it's a shame that women's rights bores you, and that you can't see why a mass shooting by a man claiming to be a woman, with that lie prioritised in many supposedly serious and respectful news outlets, has sparked debate. But that's not our failing. What are we supposed to do about it?

Also... cheering on racists? What on earth are you rabbiting on about? It's the TRAs who think men can be women because black women are women.

I am reading snippets from the judgement and it really is refreshing, Eresh.

And I think that it should start to show accusations about ‘anti-trans’ up for what they are, so often it is just emotional manipulation to shame people discussing relevant issues from the perspective of protecting female people and children.

Agree OP.

Literally nobody but let’s not let reason get in the way of a good old lie!