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To think the roots of the grooming gangs go back to failures from the 1950s on?

272 replies

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 11:32

I was reading Hina Husain's excellent article here and it made me think

https://unherd.com/2025/06/mirpuris-and-the-problem-of-integration/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

that discussion of the roots of the grooming gangs tends to focus on Blair's failed multiculturalism policies, local council/police etc failings.

But what rarely gets talked about is why and how large parts of the northern Mirpuri Pakistani communities were allowed to get to such a self-segregated and dysfunctional state to begin with.
Why was there no research in the 1950s-60s on the clan systems, misogynistic practices prevalent in rural Mirpuri villages when they were encouraged to immigrate? Why PMs from Wilson, Heath, Thatcher etc never appear to make integration of such communities a priority to some extent?

Most stuff just seems to blame PC culture & Tony Blair, who do share a huge amount of blame, but less is asked about why this situation, clearly full of potential issues, was never addressed much from the 60s to 1997...

Mirpuris and the problem of integration

https://unherd.com/2025/06/mirpuris-and-the-problem-of-integration/

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6
Carla786 · 10/02/2026 01:20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2026 01:18

Yes, I agree that a lot of people simply used the race/culture issue as an excuse to hide behind. However that means it’s a problem in and of itself, that they thought they could do that.

Exactly

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2026 01:18

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/02/2026 22:55

And there are reports that police officers also abused the same girls. Easy prey, nobody would believe the girls, some would believe that no police officer would go near them as they'd chosen non white boyfriends (the idea they'd been groomed wasn't a thing), the police if caught out would say they were making it up - and later when trying to find out why they did nothing, rather than ever admit 'well, it was because we were also raping them/didn't want to destroy my promotion chances/just thought they deserved it for going with them in the first place', the easy option is to say 'Couldn't say a thing because we'd have been called racist'.

Yes, I agree that a lot of people simply used the race/culture issue as an excuse to hide behind. However that means it’s a problem in and of itself, that they thought they could do that.

Carla786 · 10/02/2026 01:02

suburberphobe · 10/02/2026 00:29

UK governments from the mid-50s on showed virtually no awareness of these issues.

Well, it wasn't even on the radar then, was it?

Certainly not in the news.

Europe was just rebuilding from WW2.

My point is that the mid to late 1950s are when the Kasmir Mirpuri community were brought over who would cause (not all but many) these problems later.

There was very little thought apparently taken as to how well they would integrate : why?

By mid 1950s Britain was doing better, recovery from WW2 had progressed.

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RichardOnslowRoper · 10/02/2026 00:34

Pinkissmart · 10/02/2026 00:04

Jesus.

Men taking advantage of young girls is a tale as old as time.
Not sure it’s deeper than the existence of piece of shit men

Edited

The Casey report does not agree with you.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y0lrk2dqyo

A woman sits with her back to the camera on a chair facing a curtained window.

Casey report pulls no punches - but will it lead to meaningful change?

For survivors of sexual abuse, practical on the ground change will be vital, writes social affairs editor Alison Holt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y0lrk2dqyo

suburberphobe · 10/02/2026 00:29

UK governments from the mid-50s on showed virtually no awareness of these issues.

Well, it wasn't even on the radar then, was it?

Certainly not in the news.

Europe was just rebuilding from WW2.

Pinkissmart · 10/02/2026 00:04

Jesus.

Men taking advantage of young girls is a tale as old as time.
Not sure it’s deeper than the existence of piece of shit men

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 23:30

Theroadt · 09/02/2026 22:52

This 100%. Honestly the OP’s comments and some of the comments on this thread are quite hard to fathom.

May I ask which of my comments are hard to fathom?

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Carla786 · 09/02/2026 23:30

MsGreying · 09/02/2026 23:13

Cultures who don't marry outside their very close family circles are less trusting of other cultures. More likely to resist changing anything about them.

Exactly. My point was that the UK governments from the mid-50s on showed virtually no awareness of these issues.

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Carla786 · 09/02/2026 23:29

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/02/2026 22:55

And there are reports that police officers also abused the same girls. Easy prey, nobody would believe the girls, some would believe that no police officer would go near them as they'd chosen non white boyfriends (the idea they'd been groomed wasn't a thing), the police if caught out would say they were making it up - and later when trying to find out why they did nothing, rather than ever admit 'well, it was because we were also raping them/didn't want to destroy my promotion chances/just thought they deserved it for going with them in the first place', the easy option is to say 'Couldn't say a thing because we'd have been called racist'.

Yes, I'd forgotten that. Some policemen so abused them...

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SemiRetiredLoveGoddeess · 09/02/2026 23:24

Ablondiebutagoody · 09/02/2026 12:25

Same argument though isn't it? Nobody wants to appear racist and is happy to accept honour killings, rape gangs, fgm, birth defects, bombings etc. etc. providing there are votes in it.

Hear, hear you got it one.

The Labour Government has supported these people for years and still do.

Because as you say these groups will vote for them.

And this the real evil of politics

Politicians will do anything to keep votes and stay in power

So they can keep their nice jobs and serve their monstrous egos.

And of course their Masters. Their Elite friends

Ukefluke · 09/02/2026 23:19

Yes the British are fabulous integrators🙄

MsGreying · 09/02/2026 23:13

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 11:48

It's very odd : Caribbean immigrants spoke English, had been raised with 'mother country' ideas etc. Pakistani immigrants in Mirpur mainly didn't speak English, had not been raised with those ideas, the list goes on..

Did they just think all foreigners from the Commonwealth were the same?

Cultures who don't marry outside their very close family circles are less trusting of other cultures. More likely to resist changing anything about them.

RichardOnslowRoper · 09/02/2026 23:04

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/02/2026 22:55

And there are reports that police officers also abused the same girls. Easy prey, nobody would believe the girls, some would believe that no police officer would go near them as they'd chosen non white boyfriends (the idea they'd been groomed wasn't a thing), the police if caught out would say they were making it up - and later when trying to find out why they did nothing, rather than ever admit 'well, it was because we were also raping them/didn't want to destroy my promotion chances/just thought they deserved it for going with them in the first place', the easy option is to say 'Couldn't say a thing because we'd have been called racist'.

Yes, this is also true. These girls- like the Epstein girls- seem to have been fair game for everybody.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/02/2026 22:55

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 20:06

On this point : plenty of Asian women do talk about this & criticise it. Anecdotally, I have an Indian (Hindu fwiw) friend who was extremely pale-skinned as a baby. This was a big thing her parents got praised for by some, which became especially awkward when her skin darkened as she got older. It's really sad these attitudes have been entrenched for so long, though as you say, there is change.

Re the police point: yes, police then & maybe many now sadly didn't really see abuse of working class or perceived 'promiscuous' women and girls as a big issue. Look at the Yorkshire Ripper handling, for one...

Edited

And there are reports that police officers also abused the same girls. Easy prey, nobody would believe the girls, some would believe that no police officer would go near them as they'd chosen non white boyfriends (the idea they'd been groomed wasn't a thing), the police if caught out would say they were making it up - and later when trying to find out why they did nothing, rather than ever admit 'well, it was because we were also raping them/didn't want to destroy my promotion chances/just thought they deserved it for going with them in the first place', the easy option is to say 'Couldn't say a thing because we'd have been called racist'.

Theroadt · 09/02/2026 22:52

Boomer55 · 09/02/2026 12:18

There is a problem with different cultures sometimes now. That is beyond doubt.

I’m not sure modern style grooming gangs started in the 50’s as it mainly Afro-Caribbean families arriving here then, who shared our culture in many ways. .

But, paedophilia happens in all cultures. I used to work in child protection some years ago - statistically a lot of sexual abuse was coming from step parents, care homes, and voluntary groups/churches then.

I also remember the “rent boys” problem in the 70’s/80’s when very young boys were seen as desirable by some people. . 🤷‍♀️.

Edited

This 100%. Honestly the OP’s comments and some of the comments on this thread are quite hard to fathom.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:49

JenniferBooth · 09/02/2026 22:46

Bit like GB news being the only national media outlet to give Siobhan Whyte a voice. The others wernt interested. See? Works both ways.

That case was horrifying. Why on earth did he do it??

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JenniferBooth · 09/02/2026 22:46

BigYellowBus · 09/02/2026 12:00

Do you have evidence of that? Not just one random article.

Why do you think white British men assault children (which they clearly do, in large numbers)? Or are you not so interested in that?

Edited

Bit like GB news being the only national media outlet to give Siobhan Whyte a voice. The others wernt interested. See? Works both ways.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:43

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 22:41

I know its not a monolith but without writing every single country's name im using Indian sub continent for short hand

The differences in culture dont really explain this, other wise urbane, educated, middle and upper class men all over the world would not abuse women and children, but we know they do.

Its not possible that other groups also do not systemically abuse children or is it? As I write that is something else going on that we cant work out

Thats why it needs examination and study.

It does.

Of course all groups of men contain child abusers, but just as some cultures are more conducive to & tolerant of domestic violence, some cultures are more conducive to nurturing and turning blind eye to child abuse.

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soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 22:41

RichardOnslowRoper · 09/02/2026 22:36

The Indian sub-continent- consisting of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan- is not a monolith, even though everyone in it is lumped in the category of "Asian".

There are huge differences in culture and the treatment of women across it. Not that I am claiming that any part of the sub-continent treats women brilliantly. But there are still parts that are way more advanced than others, and it's not a good idea to have a one-size-fits-all approach. Both men and women from Southern India, for instance, are often very highly educated, usually in medicine, engineering, law.. the high-earning professions. Cousin marriage, to take another controversial issue, is not common among Hindu Indians generally, because many follow the traditional system of "gotras", which means you don't marry anyone from the same family.

The Casey report is worth reading on this, though it did mostly conclude that there is not enough good data on grooming gangs. But it urged more investigation, more data collection and less tiptoeing around sensibilities. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-audit-on-group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-and-abuse

I agree with the report. I think women and children should always come first, above any considerations of race, religion, custom, tradition... This especially goes for the vulnerable children- because children is what they were- in Rotherham. They should have been believed and protected. I hope it never happens again.

I know its not a monolith but without writing every single country's name im using Indian sub continent for short hand

The differences in culture dont really explain this, other wise urbane, educated, middle and upper class men all over the world would not abuse women and children, but we know they do.

Its not possible that other groups also do not systemically abuse children or is it? As I write that is something else going on that we cant work out

Thats why it needs examination and study.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:40

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 22:26

I know the history of Pakistan and India, Ive researched it a lot (not as formal study), what I wasnt aware of was that you seem to be saying that in terms of grooming gangs from the Indian subcontinent, the members of these criminal networks are ONLY from Pakistan or Pakistani heritage (Muslim), not Indian (Hindu) as such

Which I find very puzzling.

Im not sure I get the refernece to education vs clannish culture because white British men who are educated and not from low clannish/inbred cultures also abuse kids and are part of gangs.

Yes that is true. Rhe divide between the urban, educated Indian Sikhs & Hindus who migrated here & the rural fundamentalist Mirpuri Pakistanis does seem to explain it at least partially, surely?

Re this : 'Pakistan or Pakistani heritage (Muslim), not Indian (Hindu) as such'. I don't want to derail but I think it's better not to use Pakistani interchangeably with Muslim, and Indian with Hindu. I get why, but both countries do have religious minorities,,and Britain has many Sikhs as well as Hindus, so it gets possibly confusing to do that in this context, I think.
Maybe clearer to say 'Pakistani Muslim' and 'Indian Hindu'/'Indian Sikh' if wanting to specify both religion & nationality...

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RichardOnslowRoper · 09/02/2026 22:36

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 21:52

That is very interesting.

And quite incredible.

Whats that about then

The Indian sub-continent- consisting of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan- is not a monolith, even though everyone in it is lumped in the category of "Asian".

There are huge differences in culture and the treatment of women across it. Not that I am claiming that any part of the sub-continent treats women brilliantly. But there are still parts that are way more advanced than others, and it's not a good idea to have a one-size-fits-all approach. Both men and women from Southern India, for instance, are often very highly educated, usually in medicine, engineering, law.. the high-earning professions. Cousin marriage, to take another controversial issue, is not common among Hindu Indians generally, because many follow the traditional system of "gotras", which means you don't marry anyone from the same family.

The Casey report is worth reading on this, though it did mostly conclude that there is not enough good data on grooming gangs. But it urged more investigation, more data collection and less tiptoeing around sensibilities. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-audit-on-group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-and-abuse

I agree with the report. I think women and children should always come first, above any considerations of race, religion, custom, tradition... This especially goes for the vulnerable children- because children is what they were- in Rotherham. They should have been believed and protected. I hope it never happens again.

National Audit on Group-based Child Sexual Exploitation and Abuse

Baroness Casey's audit on group-based child sexual exploitation and abuse ('grooming gangs').

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-audit-on-group-based-child-sexual-exploitation-and-abuse

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 22:35

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:32

'The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.'

This has been the bit I've least wanted to read about because I just can't stand to know details...

But without discussing graphic details on this thread, I think we should delve into the mindset behind this What the hell was going on with these men? Extreme sectarianism? Combined with misogyny? This wasn't a wartime sexual violence situation (obviously war is no excuse, what I mean is the extreme hatred seemed more like a war situation)

And why did the communities cover it up? Because they approved? Because they didn't approve but held to mafia-style code that you don't hand your clan in? In the case of women I do have sympathy to some extent as women are often kept in a horrible situation within such families and cousin marriage etc limits agency. But that doesn't excuse many women who surely held the same horrible attitudes.

Yes I agree, if you're right about only being certain groups, Im astounded there isnt some formal social academic study about that, there normally is on groups of criminals.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:32

Bringemout · 09/02/2026 19:39

I actually think if the police had stomped all over it when it first started happening we wouldn’t have the scale of the problem we have now. But lets be honest the police at the time basically didn’t care if crimes were committed against women and girls generally.

I was thinking about this and I think the psychology of this is interesting. The thing is to a lot of aisan men fair skin is highly desirable (I think for a lot of communities this is dying a death a bit). Most of the Pakistani boys I came across growing up despised non muslim women, proper mother/ whore complex So I guess you have this dichotomy of highly desiring white females but also being taught to despise them. I don’t think it’s as simple as these girls were just more available. A lot of asian women get affronted at this idea but it’s true, look at the level of colourism within asian communities that was completely normal 20 years ago. The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.

I also don’t think you necessarily look at an incoming group and automatically assume that you are going to have problems with rape gangs in a few years. Why would you, at the time it’s not like people were overly concerned about the wellbeing of women anyway, from the perspective of the left as well you would have looked on incoming migrants as workers who may be additionally disadvantaged by their colour, so victims of exploitation really. I think some people seem to still hold the view that if you are from a minority group your crime is less “bad”. Personally I loathe all rapists, whatever their colour and child rapist are on my “should be lined up against the wall and shog” list.

On the colonial thing, Pakistan didn’t exist when Britian colonised Indian but you don’t see indian rape gangs roaming around so it’s not a bloody excuse is it. If it were simply behaviour as a consequence of colonialism you would see more colonised people behaving this way. You don’t, which suggests there is a specific cultural problem at play here. You don’t seem to have punjabi Pakistani rape gangs either. It’s probably extremely specific to a sub population. It would be interesting to see actual origin completely disaggregated to understand exactly who these people are. I also wonder at the rates of cousin marriage within these groups.

There has to be very specific family types, the whole celebrating eid by having your cousins visit and then raping girls thing that blew up on twitter astounded me a bit (two confirmed cases, in that there are court records). Most normal muslim families will be celebrating eid together, eating together, giving gifts, family time etc. I don’t know a single muslim family that would tolerate a bunch of men taking off on eid together to go out and coming back smashed.

I also don’t think it does anything useful to pretend that it’s not happening/didn’t happen or that if it is happening it’s some else's fault. Most Pakistani families will be looking at this and thinking “oh hell no, that is absolutely not the kind of people we are” and they would be right. BUT there is a subsection of the Pakistani community that has fostered this behaviour and either ignored it or joined in. It’s not going to go away, lets not try to find a way to somehow excuse rapists or not hold them accountable because thats what happened before and we left children defenceless, we allowed crimes to be committed against children because British society was too cowardly to just deal with it.

'The level of abuse and rage these girls seem to be subjected to isn’t just about wanting to have sex (rape obviously), it was punishment and torture.'

This has been the bit I've least wanted to read about because I just can't stand to know details...

But without discussing graphic details on this thread, I think we should delve into the mindset behind this What the hell was going on with these men? Extreme sectarianism? Combined with misogyny? This wasn't a wartime sexual violence situation (obviously war is no excuse, what I mean is the extreme hatred seemed more like a war situation)

And why did the communities cover it up? Because they approved? Because they didn't approve but held to mafia-style code that you don't hand your clan in? In the case of women I do have sympathy to some extent as women are often kept in a horrible situation within such families and cousin marriage etc limits agency. But that doesn't excuse many women who surely held the same horrible attitudes.

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soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 22:26

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:16

Pakistan was specifically created by Jinnah to be a Muslim country for the Muslims of British India (which included modern day Pakistan & Bangladesh). Originally Bangladesh was East Pakistan, but it became a separate country in the 70s. Anyway, the main point is that Pakistan is majority Muslim by design, especially rural regions like Mirpur where UK Pakistanis come from.

Edited

I know the history of Pakistan and India, Ive researched it a lot (not as formal study), what I wasnt aware of was that you seem to be saying that in terms of grooming gangs from the Indian subcontinent, the members of these criminal networks are ONLY from Pakistan or Pakistani heritage (Muslim), not Indian (Hindu) as such

Which I find very puzzling.

Im not sure I get the refernece to education vs clannish culture because white British men who are educated and not from low clannish/inbred cultures also abuse kids and are part of gangs.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 22:16

soupyspoon · 09/02/2026 21:28

So the Indian/Pakistani gangs are Muslim, not Hindu?

Pakistan was specifically created by Jinnah to be a Muslim country for the Muslims of British India (which included modern day Pakistan & Bangladesh). Originally Bangladesh was East Pakistan, but it became a separate country in the 70s. Anyway, the main point is that Pakistan is majority Muslim by design, especially rural regions like Mirpur where UK Pakistanis come from.

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