Page 9 | Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 2026-02-08T15:31:51+00:00

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play *Mother Goose* as a *Witch *(^how original^) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag. I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 20:30

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 20:18

Mother Goose pre-dates Panto by hundreds of years.
You're saying it's okay for a man to rewrite the character as a witch and play her as a nasty nagging old woman but not to reclaim the original character and have her played by women who bring a lot more to the role than a tired old trope.

Black & White Minstrels used to be all the rage until they weren't.
My view is that panto dames should be played by women not men who interpret them in an old-fashioned sexist manner not in keeping with the times.
They've run their course and are clapped out.

The whole concept is sexist and not a good role model for girls in the audience.

The principal boy roles are now mainly played (as they should be) by young men. Why can't we do the same for panto dames?

There are plenty of fantastic comedians and comic actresses who have a million times more skill and talent than the men playing panto dames.

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It’s like talking to a brick wall 🙄

A pantomime is loosely based on a traditional story. It’s not meant to be a detailed, accurate re-telling. It’s a particular art form that takes elements of a story and mixes it with current affairs and local information for satirical effect. My local theatre did Mother Goose this year and I don’t recall the original character becoming TikTok famous as they did in this performance or remember the original story being partly set in my neighbouring village. That’s the point of a panto - that mix of traditional story with contemporary, local
references.

The dame character is written specifically for a man. The script is written taking that dynamic into account. It just wouldn’t work the same way if it was written for an older woman. Why is that so difficult to understand?

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 20:18

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 19:08

why do you keep ignoring the fact that this isn’t a role that has been written for older women in the first place. The humour is in the fact that’s it’s meant to be played by a man.

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Mother Goose pre-dates Panto by hundreds of years.
You're saying it's okay for a man to rewrite the character as a witch and play her as a nasty nagging old woman but not to reclaim the original character and have her played by women who bring a lot more to the role than a tired old trope.

Black & White Minstrels used to be all the rage until they weren't.
My view is that panto dames should be played by women not men who interpret them in an old-fashioned sexist manner not in keeping with the times.
They've run their course and are clapped out.

The whole concept is sexist and not a good role model for girls in the audience.

The principal boy roles are now mainly played (as they should be) by young men. Why can't we do the same for panto dames?

There are plenty of fantastic comedians and comic actresses who have a million times more skill and talent than the men playing panto dames.

OP posts:

Verytall · 09/02/2026 20:17

Emma8888 · 09/02/2026 19:34

Tell me you don’t understand Shakespeare without telling me you don’t understand Shakespeare!! He literally wrote lines fully intended to by funny because a man was playing the role - As You Like It is a prime example “If I were a woman I would kiss as many of you as had beards that please me” - literally a female character played by a man, playing on the fact the audience knows he is a man playing a woman. A Midsummer Night’s Dream has a scene with a man complaining he has to play a girl in the inner play, which was intended to be comedic knowing the dynamics. There’s a massive amount of ‘cross dressing’ within the plays (man playing woman playing man) in the comedies, like Twelfth Night, Merchant of Venice, etc.

The roles in the plays were frequently written with the fact the role was to be played by a man, and jokes and stage directions written accordingly - by your own logic, women should not play Lady Macbeth, Viola, Rosalind, Cleopatra, The Nurse, etc.

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I don't think the OP ever had any interest in Shakespeare, or intent to understand it - the thread was started on the back of another about drag queens reading to children, and their view that no man should ever wear a dress (makes them perverts apparently). I don't think their interest in women's theatre roles is genuine, it's wanting to ban men from what they consider to be misogynistic behaviour on a par with blackface.

whereisitnow · 09/02/2026 20:16

Well now we know where the threshold is. Gender critical, feminist, all good-but don’t come for Widow Twanky!

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 20:15

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 20:10

An art form that mocks older women - how original.

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I’m beginning to think you’ve never actually seen a pantomime…

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 20:13

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 20:07

Many but not all are gay.
Christopher Biggins played panto dames for 50 years.
Some other notable dames were Danny La Rue, Paul O'Grady, John Inman, Jack Tripp, Freddie Lees, Johnny McKnight and many more in regional theatres.

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What about the smaller local productions? How can you possibly know the sexuality of the cast members of all of his pantomimes that are performed every year?

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 20:10

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 19:49

If that what they want to do and that’s what a theatre company chooses to write then that’s their prerogative. However, it doesn’t take away from the fact that in a traditional British pantomime the role of the dame is written for, and played by a man. The humour of the character often hinges on that aspect.
Writing that part for a woman changes the dynamic and the whole premise of that character and it’s role in the story.

This isn’t about breaking glass ceilings, it’s about the character of a traditional art form.

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An art form that mocks older women - how original.

OP posts:

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 20:07

SomeoneCalled · 09/02/2026 18:11

Are they gay? How many actually are?

Many but not all are gay.
Christopher Biggins played panto dames for 50 years.
Some other notable dames were Danny La Rue, Paul O'Grady, John Inman, Jack Tripp, Freddie Lees, Johnny McKnight and many more in regional theatres.

OP posts:

ODFOx · 09/02/2026 19:56

Dames should stay and Principal boys should revert to women.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 19:51

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 19:42

Mother Goose predates panto by centuries and was a well-loved grandmother figure - Joseph Grimaldi stole the idea from Mr Simmons who had decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch instead of according to the fairy tale.
That's sexism right there.
Grimaldi ran with the idea because the public were getting bored with clowns (and who could blame them? - They creep me out too).

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The story predates pantomime… so what? It doesn’t mean the role of the pantomime dame was ever designed to be played by a woman.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 19:49

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 19:40

Several women are breaking this glass ceiling and taking the role of the panto dame and why on earth not?!

Dawn French was fabulous as Dame Trot in Jack and the Beanstalk.
Other older female comedians would jump at the opportunity but are being excluded. Caroline Quentin wrote about this back in 2016.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3925808/Having-male-panto-dame-sexist-claims-Caroline-Quentin-Christopher-Biggins-says-Oh-no-isn-t.html

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If that what they want to do and that’s what a theatre company chooses to write then that’s their prerogative. However, it doesn’t take away from the fact that in a traditional British pantomime the role of the dame is written for, and played by a man. The humour of the character often hinges on that aspect.
Writing that part for a woman changes the dynamic and the whole premise of that character and it’s role in the story.

This isn’t about breaking glass ceilings, it’s about the character of a traditional art form.

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 19:42

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 19:39

It’s not a female role though!!!! Why are you so determined to ignore that fact!

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Mother Goose predates panto by centuries and was a well-loved grandmother figure - Joseph Grimaldi stole the idea from Mr Simmons who had decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch instead of according to the fairy tale.
That's sexism right there.
Grimaldi ran with the idea because the public were getting bored with clowns (and who could blame them? - They creep me out too).

OP posts:

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 19:40

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 17:54

The OP is pretty clueless tbh. They’ve pretty much ignored anyone pointing out that the character of the pantomime dame has historically and traditionally always been played by a man. The character is specifically written to be played by a man.
The pantomime I watch every year has the traditional same character played by a man. It wouldn’t work if a woman was playing that role.

Just because someone starts a Mumsnet thread doesn’t make them right!

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Several women are breaking this glass ceiling and taking the role of the panto dame and why on earth not?!

Dawn French was fabulous as Dame Trot in Jack and the Beanstalk.
Other older female comedians would jump at the opportunity but are being excluded. Caroline Quentin wrote about this back in 2016.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3925808/Having-male-panto-dame-sexist-claims-Caroline-Quentin-Christopher-Biggins-says-Oh-no-isn-t.html

Is having a male panto dame is sexist? Oh no it isn't!

Actress Caroline Quentin has called the tradition of the pantomime dame inherently ‘sexist’ and ‘unflattering to women’ but actor Christopher Biggens believes it's a role nest played by a man.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3925808/Having-male-panto-dame-sexist-claims-Caroline-Quentin-Christopher-Biggins-says-Oh-no-isn-t.html

OP posts:

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 19:39

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 19:37

These roles could be played differently and brilliantly by women.
My main issue is that women are excluded from playing female roles that would otherwise go to older actresses and comedians who could do with the work.
Why discriminate in favour of men?
They already have most of the good roles in acting as it is.

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It’s not a female role though!!!! Why are you so determined to ignore that fact!

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 19:37

ObelixtheGaul · 09/02/2026 18:12

The audience aren't laughing at older female figures. They are laughing at a character who is blindingly obviously a man in a dress. A good panto dame is very obviously male. That's where the humour is. People are laughing at a man wearing a dress, not at older women.

You'd have a point if the point was that the audience were supposed to believe that the same was a woman, or if the same was dressed and made up to have any sort of realistic portrayal about it, but it isn't.

The role of the panto dame is purely about the comedy of obviously male figures pretending to be women. We are laughing at the man. At the very idea that anyone could really believe the obvious male was a woman.

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These roles could be played differently and brilliantly by women.
My main issue is that women are excluded from playing female roles that would otherwise go to older actresses and comedians who could do with the work.
Why discriminate in favour of men?
They already have most of the good roles in acting as it is.

OP posts:

Emma8888 · 09/02/2026 19:34

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 18:36

False equivalence and not very flattering for the bard.
In Shakespeare's day women were not allowed act - it was considered on a par with prostitution. Happily that is no longer the case.
What a lazy argument btw - do try harder next time.

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Tell me you don’t understand Shakespeare without telling me you don’t understand Shakespeare!! He literally wrote lines fully intended to by funny because a man was playing the role - As You Like It is a prime example “If I were a woman I would kiss as many of you as had beards that please me” - literally a female character played by a man, playing on the fact the audience knows he is a man playing a woman. A Midsummer Night’s Dream has a scene with a man complaining he has to play a girl in the inner play, which was intended to be comedic knowing the dynamics. There’s a massive amount of ‘cross dressing’ within the plays (man playing woman playing man) in the comedies, like Twelfth Night, Merchant of Venice, etc.

The roles in the plays were frequently written with the fact the role was to be played by a man, and jokes and stage directions written accordingly - by your own logic, women should not play Lady Macbeth, Viola, Rosalind, Cleopatra, The Nurse, etc.

Carla786 · 09/02/2026 19:16

Tankflop · 09/02/2026 16:14

young woman though.

I think that’s OP’s point.

Where are the older women’s roles in panto? Taken by older gay men

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Are most panto dames gay?

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 09/02/2026 19:08

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 18:56

Women can do a better job at playing the panto dame.
Dawn French was superb in Jack & the Beanstalk and some other regional theatres are finally allowing actresses and comedians to play dames in panto.
There shouldn't be a veto on women taking female roles.
There are few enough roles for older actresses as it is.

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why do you keep ignoring the fact that this isn’t a role that has been written for older women in the first place. The humour is in the fact that’s it’s meant to be played by a man.

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 18:57

ObelixtheGaul · 09/02/2026 18:12

The audience aren't laughing at older female figures. They are laughing at a character who is blindingly obviously a man in a dress. A good panto dame is very obviously male. That's where the humour is. People are laughing at a man wearing a dress, not at older women.

You'd have a point if the point was that the audience were supposed to believe that the same was a woman, or if the same was dressed and made up to have any sort of realistic portrayal about it, but it isn't.

The role of the panto dame is purely about the comedy of obviously male figures pretending to be women. We are laughing at the man. At the very idea that anyone could really believe the obvious male was a woman.

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Surely it's bigoted to laugh at a man in frock?!

OP posts:

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 09/02/2026 18:56

ShowMeTheSea · 09/02/2026 00:37

Panto's meant to be silly, silly! 😁

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Women can do a better job at playing the panto dame.
Dawn French was superb in Jack & the Beanstalk and some other regional theatres are finally allowing actresses and comedians to play dames in panto.
There shouldn't be a veto on women taking female roles.
There are few enough roles for older actresses as it is.

OP posts:

taxi4ballet · 09/02/2026 18:26

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 09/02/2026 15:52

It still means British stages are showcasing racially insensitive material

It's not a "gotcha" to say "well it's ok. They are British"

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That's down to the theatres booking them then, and the audience members who have booked tickets.

SomeoneCalled · 09/02/2026 18:15

LVhandbagsatdawn · 08/02/2026 16:18

You really don't like gender non conforming men do you OP.

how they can be called gender non conforming when it is a show. Back in communism I had two PE teachers dressed in tutus dancing like a ballerinas at Christmas. We loved it and laughed our hearts out

where is ancient Greek comedy and tragi-comedy...it started back then with men wearing women's masks

ObelixtheGaul · 09/02/2026 18:12

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 17:47

It's not ridiculous.
You've been brought up with this norm and find it "normal".
It's not.
And it's not funny.

The script can be written differently with a lot more imagination for a female playing the role.

Panto Dames are based on a tired old misogynistic trope of women.
They allow the audience to laugh at (often older) female figures.

Where are the equivalent older male figures we all get to laugh at in pantos?

There aren't any because panto dames are misogynistic sexist tropes.
Just like the women in Benny Hill sketches.

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The audience aren't laughing at older female figures. They are laughing at a character who is blindingly obviously a man in a dress. A good panto dame is very obviously male. That's where the humour is. People are laughing at a man wearing a dress, not at older women.

You'd have a point if the point was that the audience were supposed to believe that the same was a woman, or if the same was dressed and made up to have any sort of realistic portrayal about it, but it isn't.

The role of the panto dame is purely about the comedy of obviously male figures pretending to be women. We are laughing at the man. At the very idea that anyone could really believe the obvious male was a woman.

SomeoneCalled · 09/02/2026 18:11

Are they gay? How many actually are?

JustOnePersonNotAnOctopus · 09/02/2026 17:56

Tankflop · 09/02/2026 17:48

Did you not read the OPs post that it was originally a part for women?
Sorry I don’t know which post now.

But Anyhow it is now a very different feel and script than years gone by. The Danes are just themselves.
think Dane Edna just doing their own character. Same as Les Dawson just doing his ADA sketch.

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Deleted as duplicate post.