Page 4 | Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 2026-02-08T15:31:51+00:00

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play *Mother Goose* as a *Witch *(^how original^) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag. I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

Butchyrestingface · 10/02/2026 20:30

5foot5 · 08/02/2026 16:01

And what about the fact that the "principal boy" i.e. male, romantic lead, is always played by a woman? Thoughts?

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I don't know whereabouts you are, but I am panto daft and live in Scotland. The principal boy in about 90% of the pantos I go to see (and I see a lot of pantos) is male.

Coconutter24 · 10/02/2026 20:30

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 20:00

But trans men are men.

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Trans men identify as men

Coconutter24 · 10/02/2026 20:28

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 20:01

How do you know they aren’t trans.

How does the audience know they aren’t trans.

That is so transphobic. Trans men are men

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Peter Alexander, Trevor Bannister, Stanley Baxter, Christopher Biggins…. All dames none trans. Plenty more pantomime dames non of which are trans.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 20:12

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 20:09

How do you know the Dame is not trans?

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Which Dame? All of them?

I know the actors that have played the Dame in my local theatre aren’t Trans but I obviously can’t speak for every actor who has ever played the part of a panto Dame.

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 20:09

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 20:06

What is the point you are trying to make?

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How do you know the Dame is not trans?

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 20:07

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 20:04

Methinks the "HighLadyofTheNightCourt" doth protest too much.

The winds of change are already blowing.

Ten years from now, it will be female-dominated.

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What? What are you talking about?
This post makes zero sense.

What exactly are you trying to suggest here?

Verytall · 10/02/2026 20:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 20:06

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 20:00

But trans men are men.

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What is the point you are trying to make?

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 20:04

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 19:41

In what way is a pantomime misogynistic?
The focus of the joke isn’t women. It’s the man performing as a pantomime dame. He is the butt of the joke.

The Dame character is not the villain in a pantomime. Which you’d know if you’d ever actually seen one.

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Methinks the "HighLadyofTheNightCourt" doth protest too much.

The winds of change are already blowing.

Ten years from now, it will be female-dominated.

OP posts:

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 20:01

Coconutter24 · 10/02/2026 19:29

Have you ever watched a pantomime? It’s also not transphobic because these people aren’t trans

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How do you know they aren’t trans.

How does the audience know they aren’t trans.

That is so transphobic. Trans men are men

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 20:00

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 18:51

Eh? I genuinely don’t think you or @SpringTimeIsRingTimehave ever actually seen a pantomime.
Of if you have the not so subtle humour has gone over your head.

Yes the dame character is meant to be comical, and yes part of that humour lies in the fact that it’s a male character played by a male actor. And no, it’s not transphobic to find that character funny.

What about that is so hard to comprehend?

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But trans men are men.

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 19:41

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 19:34

An essence based on misogyny?

Dawn French and other female actors are leading the way forward.
The role can be funny and entertaining without portraying older women in a negative light.

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In what way is a pantomime misogynistic?
The focus of the joke isn’t women. It’s the man performing as a pantomime dame. He is the butt of the joke.

The Dame character is not the villain in a pantomime. Which you’d know if you’d ever actually seen one.

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 19:34

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 08/02/2026 17:45

How would you retain the essence of a traditional pantomime if you made the changes you’re suggesting?

Edited

An essence based on misogyny?

Dawn French and other female actors are leading the way forward.
The role can be funny and entertaining without portraying older women in a negative light.

OP posts:

Coconutter24 · 10/02/2026 19:29

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 18:47

So men in women’s clothing is comical?
How transphobic is that?

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Have you ever watched a pantomime? It’s also not transphobic because these people aren’t trans

Coconutter24 · 10/02/2026 19:27

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 15:41

The old male panto dame roles were originally written for older women.
Bloody men take everything - given half a chance.

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These characters were never made for older women

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 19:11

mumofoneAloneandwell · 08/02/2026 16:07

I don’t see why they don’t cancel mrs browns boys and have a show fronted by a woman 🤷‍♀️

Not a fan of this show either.

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SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 19:08

taxi4ballet · 10/02/2026 18:24

There you are. Hoist by your own petard.* *

"Gay men who do drag" eh? So not only are you assuming that all artists who perform the role of a panto Dame are gay and proudly blatantly misogynistic, you are also assuming that straight people don't dress up in drag for theatrical performances. So it is not the fact that men instead of women who play Dames that you are riled up about, it is because you believe they are either gay or drag queens or both.

I've just had a look back through the thread as there was another comment of yours that I wanted to quote and I can't find it, so I can therefore only assume that it was in the post of yours that has been deleted by MNHQ. Seems like other people must have found it as offensive as I did and reported it.

Oh yes, and why did you post a link to a DM article not once, but twice? The Daily Mail. That bastion of tolerance, inclusivity and LGBTQ etc rights. 🙄

From your numerous posts it is abundantly clear that it is both homosexuals and drag artists who offend you, so don't go trying to hide behind a cloak of feminism and women's rights. You slipped up and gave the game away by calling female performers 'actresses'. We can see you.

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What a nonsense.

I use the term "actress" because it's the one I grew up with and as a woman, I personally have no issue with the word. I care far more about opportunities for women than arguing about a word borrowed from French - a language where every noun is either masculine or feminine.

I use it on this thread because it's far more efficient than repeatedly saying "female actors".

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Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 19:03

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 18:16

I'm not imposing my choice of word on anyone.
I've already said people are free to call themselves whatever they like.
Some actresses, probably in my age bracket, don't have an issue with the term at all.

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I also prefer the term "actress" because it includes "female" - otherwise I'd have to keep referring to "female actors" and "male actors" which frankly I find very inefficient and awkward.

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HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 19:02

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 18:59

You need to go back and read what I've written instead twisting it to suit your narrative.

I've already said that not all men who play the panto dame are gay but many prominent gay men have played this role and I listed some. One of them even played panto dames for half a century. That's a great gig - for one man.

I couldn't care less if the men are gay, straight, bisexual, asexual or anything else they fancy. I care that they're men taking roles from women when there are already too few roles for women in theatre.

I also care that men in panto represent older women in a misogynistic way from the get-go. Mr Simmons turned nice old Mother Goose into a Witch after all.

I also don't think it's healthy for young children to see older women depicted in a negative way. I think that contributes to the overall negative view of older women in real life too. I think it's time to change.

I'd also like to see what the many many highly skilled and talented actresses in the country could do with the panto dame persona and some are already breaking that particular glass ceiling.
Oh yes they are!!!

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They are not taking roles from women. These roles never belonged to women.

They are, and always have been, a male role written for male actors.
Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 18:59

taxi4ballet · 10/02/2026 18:24

There you are. Hoist by your own petard.* *

"Gay men who do drag" eh? So not only are you assuming that all artists who perform the role of a panto Dame are gay and proudly blatantly misogynistic, you are also assuming that straight people don't dress up in drag for theatrical performances. So it is not the fact that men instead of women who play Dames that you are riled up about, it is because you believe they are either gay or drag queens or both.

I've just had a look back through the thread as there was another comment of yours that I wanted to quote and I can't find it, so I can therefore only assume that it was in the post of yours that has been deleted by MNHQ. Seems like other people must have found it as offensive as I did and reported it.

Oh yes, and why did you post a link to a DM article not once, but twice? The Daily Mail. That bastion of tolerance, inclusivity and LGBTQ etc rights. 🙄

From your numerous posts it is abundantly clear that it is both homosexuals and drag artists who offend you, so don't go trying to hide behind a cloak of feminism and women's rights. You slipped up and gave the game away by calling female performers 'actresses'. We can see you.

Show quote history

You need to go back and read what I've written instead twisting it to suit your narrative.

I've already said that not all men who play the panto dame are gay but many prominent gay men have played this role and I listed some. One of them even played panto dames for half a century. That's a great gig - for one man.

I couldn't care less if the men are gay, straight, bisexual, asexual or anything else they fancy. I care that they're men taking roles from women when there are already too few roles for women in theatre.

I also care that men in panto represent older women in a misogynistic way from the get-go. Mr Simmons turned nice old Mother Goose into a Witch after all.

I also don't think it's healthy for young children to see older women depicted in a negative way. I think that contributes to the overall negative view of older women in real life too. I think it's time to change.

I'd also like to see what the many many highly skilled and talented actresses in the country could do with the panto dame persona and some are already breaking that particular glass ceiling.
Oh yes they are!!!

OP posts:

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 18:51

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 18:47

So men in women’s clothing is comical?
How transphobic is that?

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Eh? I genuinely don’t think you or @SpringTimeIsRingTimehave ever actually seen a pantomime.
Of if you have the not so subtle humour has gone over your head.

Yes the dame character is meant to be comical, and yes part of that humour lies in the fact that it’s a male character played by a male actor. And no, it’s not transphobic to find that character funny.

What about that is so hard to comprehend?

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 18:47

ObelixtheGaul · 10/02/2026 05:04

They absolutely could be, but then they wouldn't be panto Dames. The point you are missing is that panto Dames aren't, in fact, female characters. They aren't men playing women, they are men playing men dressed as women for comic effect. The character is a man dressed as a woman.

And, to answer your other point, no, it isn't bigoted to laugh at a man in a dress when said man is deliberately wearing that dress for obvious comic effect. Panto dames are not trans characters, any more than they are cis female characters. They are male characters, specifically designed and written for men to play.

A panto with women cast in those roles is simply a panto without a Dame in it. The Dame is a character in its own right. A male character.

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So men in women’s clothing is comical?
How transphobic is that?

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 18:44

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 18:26

Palladium panto last year -

CATHERINE TATE
JULIAN CLARY
PAUL ZERDIN
NIGEL HAVERS
JON CULSHAW
EMILY LANE
AMONIK MELACO
ROB MADGE

6 men and 2 women

And this replicates most of the big professional productions were pay is best.

It’s actually outrageous.

The pantomime at my local theatre in 2021,2022,2023,2024,&2025

6 main characters
3 played by women (2 played by older women)
3 played by men

The cast changes most years too
🤷🏼‍♀️

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 10/02/2026 18:38

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 18:05

Why would anyone want Prince Charming to be played by a grown woman?
(other than men?)

What about young girls going to see Cinderella?
I found it utterly bizarre as a child that the Prince was a grown woman old enough to be my mother.
What girl wants their mother to play Prince Charming?

I only found out much later why it happened at all - for the male gaze.

Bringing it back makes no sense whatsoever.

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Do you have trouble suspending disbelief? What is wrong with a woman playing Prince Charming?

I know you keep talking about it being about the male gaze but by pushing that point you keep missing the actual point and purpose of a pantomime. Part of the tradition is the subversion of gender roles.

Aldo, your insistence that panto dames are gay and misogynistic is homophobia.

Tankflop · 10/02/2026 18:37

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 10/02/2026 18:31

Wanting character roles based on older female figures to go to older actresses is homophobic?

By that "logic", roles representing homosexual men should be filled by older women because otherwise it's ageist, sexist and hetero phobic to declare them unsuitable.

Where on earth has anyone mentioned "trans" other than you crowbarring it in for your own reasons?

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Indeed, never seen a transman play the Dame.