Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

We should be challenging those unconscious biases instead of leaning into them.

Exactly Tankflop!

And interestingly, people generally just say actor and everyone presumes male. just like football and women’s football.
Male is the default.

I call them actresses too. I am not calling women 'actors.' Even many actresses themselves prefer to be called 'actress.' There is nothing denigrating or outdated about it.

There was a question on The Chase the other week, where Bradley Walsh asked the question 'which female actor starred in blah blah blah....' So he had say FEMALE actor. Just say ACTRESS! So much easier, and no actress is offended by it.

I notice that the IMDB uses "actress".

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000658/

Given people like Vesta Tilley & Ella Shields had female fanbases, clearly some Victorian women did like principal boys. You see similar in Japan, as I said in pp, where the all-female Takarazuka Revue has a big female fanbase (they act out traditional stories often with music, similar in some ways)

Plenty of women on the thread have said they like them as part of traditional panto - are they all lying or men? Moreover plenty of lesbians & bi women like them.

'I found it utterly bizarre as a child that the Prince was a grown woman old enough to be my mother.
What girl wants their mother to play Prince Charming?'

• if the actor is too old for the role that's a separate issue.

Part of the part of panto IS that they're bizarre. My mum as a child found the audience interaction horrible. Arguably the weird elements mean lots of kids & adults won't like them : but otoh, the sex swapping, audience interaction etc make it pantomime. You can adapt but if too much is taken out I suppose the people who enjoy going might not go so much.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Shows like RuPaul are misogynistic but they amplify deliberately shocking stuff for TV.

I think it varies. Someone like Danny LaRue didn't seem misogynistic in his impersonations to me. Nor Paul o'Grady.

I don't like dames but I'm not convinced the Mr Simmons' example is very relevant now.

Panto dames took off in the 1860s with characters like Widow Twanky etc Dames may be comical but they usually play sympathetic characters, not evil witches (the Ugly Sisters, yes,,but that's not the most common type of dame)

'also don't think it's healthy for young children to see older women depicted in a negative way. I think that contributes to the overall negative view of older women in real life too. ' - I not fully convinced by this. Panto dames are comical largely because they are burly men, that is the central joke. I'm not sure if panto dames effect kids' views of older women in real life.

Yes, that’s Berwick.

they still talk about him at YTR but I have to say the current Dame is also great.

Well I've been open about reporting the trolling to Mumsnet so there we are. I'm not interested in engaging any further as I've been clear as to my reasons why I don't think you're posting in good faith. And if you genuinely are, it's a shame that your beliefs are overshadowed by how you're putting it across, I'm not the only poster to question it.

It’s relevant to the poster who brought up homophobia and transphobia.

All my arguments are genuine.

You need to stop accusing me of things and comparing me to Tommy Robinson. it is very rude

you announced that I was a troll.
You compared me to Tommy Robinson

You are absolutely out of order.

I am entitled to my opinion and the vast majority of my posts are about women being under represented in the arts.

You announced I was a troll!
you compared me to Tommy Robinson
how dare you.

I stand by arguments

women are under represented, especially women in the arts and media.

I have listed many factual examples.

How dare you accuse me of being a troll.

My post that was deleted was the one saying this thread was a spin off from another anti LGBT thread. That threads still up if anyone wants to see the link for themselves. Not sure why that's so controversial, unless it's taken as a TAAT.

It's really rather unethical to claim you're being attacked here.

Edit - in response to @Tankflop

I see. No problem but it wasn’t me.

Well your post has been deleted.

you can stop attacking me now.

When I said they I just meant who brought it up

I didn't insult you, or personally attack you, I merely explained what you were doing. Do you not like it being pointed out? If that feels like a personal attack, maybe it's time to reflect.

They should cancel Mea Brown's Boys anyway, because it's awful.

I have reported you because you are personally attacking me.

I am a genuine poster and I believe my arguments are logical and stand by them

I didn’t bring trans into it at all. Another poster did accusing the whole thread of being homophonic and transphobic.

I don’t fully understand why they even brought trans in to it. It’s a character with over done make up and hair and usually a man in drag. Whether it’s a man, a woman or a trans man or trans woman the character is usually flamboyant and made to be a comical character

Tankflop isn't actually defending trans people here, it's purely a strawman argument.
A PP said that most panto dames are played straight men, so Tankflop is trying to deflect to suggest that the PP is being transphobic by not acknowledging that there is a possibility those men could actually be transmen, which the PP would technically have no way of knowing without having access to their medical records.

I have reported them for trolling, before anyone accuses me of troll hunting and not following Mumsnet rules.