Page 16 | Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 2026-02-08T15:31:51+00:00

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play *Mother Goose* as a *Witch *(^how original^) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag. I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 21:52

99bottlesofkombucha · 08/02/2026 21:38

By the time it’s been this way for 200 years I think we can leave any origin story to the historians, I don’t know your credentials for your assertion here but based on your understanding of the Victorian period they are non existant. Let’s leave panto alone, because this is a non issue. I’d like to remind you you don’t have to buy tickets.

Show quote history

200 years is a drop in the ocean.
Blackface started around the same time but no-one's saying that tradition should be preserved...

OP posts:

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:51

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 21:47

Queen Elizabeth wore a Rococo aristocratic man's suit and wig - not a Robin Hood style tunic with tights which is what the actresses wore during the Victorian era. Nice try though.

Show quote history

Well then, maybe the solution is to change the costume to something more like that?

Did 20th century principal boys still have to wear tights and revealing tunics?

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:49

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:44

Waitress is another one touring with a heavy female lead

But the PP just meant "plays" because musicals don't count

A snobbery level which is actually harmful to theatres...

Show quote history

The fact I prefer straight drama to musicals is not remotely harmful. I tell you what is harmful though, men dominating musical theatre in virtually every respect-composing, writing the book, directing, producing… I wish people would admit this is a huge issue. Don’t get me started on working class creatives…

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 21:47

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:38

Yes, I think it's counterproductive for a woman's role to be dismissed because it was partly intended to be sexually alluring. As I said, if principal boys were seen as hugely sleazy, Princess Elizabeth wouldn't have been doing it as a teenager in Windsor Castle.

Show quote history

Queen Elizabeth wore a Rococo aristocratic man's suit and wig - not a Robin Hood style tunic with tights which is what the actresses wore during the Victorian era. Nice try though.

OP posts:

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:46

Why is saying that musicals are not my thing ‘snobbery?’ It’s a personal preference. I don’t for one minute look unfavourably on them.

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:44

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:26

Yes. Evita was on last year at the Palladium. And Hadestown is written by a woman and has good female parts.

Show quote history

Waitress is another one touring with a heavy female lead

But the PP just meant "plays" because musicals don't count

A snobbery level which is actually harmful to theatres...

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:42

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:26

That’s musical theatre. I’m talking about drama. In any case less than 9% of musicals are written by women. It’s dire.

Show quote history

Musical theatre is pretty much the backbone of modern theatre and is just as relevant and dramatic and emotional

But nice bit of snobbery there

SemiRetiredLoveGoddeess · 08/02/2026 21:42

Keep bringing on the men. Can't wait for Ru Paul to make an appearance.

I the past maybe Hyacinth Bouquet could have been a guest dame.

Not forgetting the most famous dame of them all

The one and only
Hello Possums
Dame Edna Everage
👑👠👛🕶️🎊
X

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:39

99bottlesofkombucha · 08/02/2026 21:38

By the time it’s been this way for 200 years I think we can leave any origin story to the historians, I don’t know your credentials for your assertion here but based on your understanding of the Victorian period they are non existant. Let’s leave panto alone, because this is a non issue. I’d like to remind you you don’t have to buy tickets.

Show quote history

To be fair, OP is correct that the panto dame tradition really took off with Dan Leno & similar in the 1860s, definitely the Victorian era. It did start around 1806 but wasn't so popular until then.

Original poster

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 21:39

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:16

Or Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake (absolutely beautiful btw)

Show quote history

I don't have an issue with either of these as they are presented as an all male show. I wouldn't bother going though as I prefer the original Swan Lake to a gimmick.

OP posts:

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:39

TofuTuesday · 08/02/2026 20:41

@ErrolTheDragon we go every year and weirdly enough I was just thinking about this as he was the King in 2025 in wonderful costumes and full make up. I’m sure he’s been a more traditional dame at points but I’d have to think back. He was married to Jane MacDonald for 2024 so not then.

i don’t care about dames being played by men but what I hate is interesting roles for women being played by men for laughs. Like Trunchbull or Miss Hannigan.

Miss Hannigan is also played by a woman and the role is played exactly the same

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:38

Madlentileater · 08/02/2026 18:51

don't worry, I'm sure plenty of posters disagreeing with OP are feminists
I don't know why the principal boy role is discounted because she wears tights?
Then the principal girl role is played by a woman
And depending on the story there could be other female roles- fairy godmother, Queen in sleeping beauty, etc

Yes, I think it's counterproductive for a woman's role to be dismissed because it was partly intended to be sexually alluring. As I said, if principal boys were seen as hugely sleazy, Princess Elizabeth wouldn't have been doing it as a teenager in Windsor Castle.

99bottlesofkombucha · 08/02/2026 21:38

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 16:40

It's a highly visible role and one designed for older women.

Show quote history

By the time it’s been this way for 200 years I think we can leave any origin story to the historians, I don’t know your credentials for your assertion here but based on your understanding of the Victorian period they are non existant. Let’s leave panto alone, because this is a non issue. I’d like to remind you you don’t have to buy tickets.

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:34

taxi4ballet · 08/02/2026 18:26

This.

Oh, and er... avoid the musical Hairspray too.

Show quote history

Isn't the mum in Hairspray quite a positively portrayed character? I never know how I feel about John Waters stuff but from what I've heard of Hairspray, it's not women-hating.

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:33

JHound · 08/02/2026 18:22

It’s really not the same as blackface remotely. The history of drag and the history of blackface are not remotely similar.

Edited

Show quote history

Yes, I have issues especially with RuPaul's show but I don't think the histories are comparable.

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:32

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:28

The % of musicals written by women is less than 9%. Talk anecdotally all you like but ask women writers and actors if they think they are properly represented on stage and they’ll tell it to your straight.

Show quote history

There is a long way to go, I agree. There has been progress re big hits by women like Waitress, Six, Hadestown, Fun Home, but I agree the situation overall is very unfair.

Is it equally bad re straight plays?

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:29

vodkaredbullgirl · 08/02/2026 17:45

What do you think about ballet? Men in tight tights.

Show quote history

Yes,,both sexes are. I agree partly re the male gaze thing but I don't think that's a reason to throw the whole thing out with the bathwater.

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:28

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:26

Yes. Evita was on last year at the Palladium. And Hadestown is written by a woman and has good female parts.

Show quote history

The % of musicals written by women is less than 9%. Talk anecdotally all you like but ask women writers and actors if they think they are properly represented on stage and they’ll tell it to your straight.

Martymcfly24 · 08/02/2026 21:27

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:17

Paul o'Grady I think? John Inman, Ian McKellen are others.

Show quote history

Oh right. I had never seen one in my local productions maybe it's for bigger names.

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:26

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:22

This isn't a universal experience and many theatres are thriving, hosting new shows by diverse talent and highlight diverse talent, new shows are going on tour all the time

Show quote history

You must be talking about musicals. When I think of theatre I think drama. Musicals are not my thing .

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:26

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:19

Six, Mean Girls, Legally Blonde are all touring right now and are heavily female led casts

Show quote history

Yes. Evita was on last year at the Palladium. And Hadestown is written by a woman and has good female parts.

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:26

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:19

Six, Mean Girls, Legally Blonde are all touring right now and are heavily female led casts

Show quote history

That’s musical theatre. I’m talking about drama. In any case less than 9% of musicals are written by women. It’s dire.

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:25

Ricecrispiesatsix · 08/02/2026 21:18

Well Emma Thompson played Miss Trunchball in the film of Matilda, in the stage version it’s a man in drag.

I liked that they gave the part to a woman. Interesting/strong female parts are hard to come by, it seems a shame to give the few there are to men.

Show quote history

Agree strongly. Why shouldn't a woman play a character like Miss Trunchbull?

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:24

LittleJustice · 08/02/2026 17:27

I am a complete agreement with you OP and also think that the principle male lead should be played by a man. Or else where's the eye candy for the mums? Feels like we miss out on every level in a traditional pantomime tbh, which presumably was the point.

Hmm...actresses do get a role as principal boy, at least traditionally, as well as the princess, but I get your point re mums.
I have a lesbian friend who thinks it's a shame the panto principal boy role changed to be played by a man. So it's fair to note that audience members being attracted to the principal boy isn't necessary only a male gaze thing, but I take your point re straight female viewers missing out.

However, most pantos now cast a man as principal boy, often precisely a young pop star/similar to appeal to young women. So generally this does happen.

I myself feel the principal boy tradition equaliser the gender mockery a bit, rather than just having the dame mocking women.

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 21:22

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 20:23

Seriously? I’d be interested to know what kind of theatre you work in. Audiences are down, revenue is critically low, decades of underfunding by the government in the arts, working class creatives working in theatre is diabolically low (about 8%). Theatres are hanging by a thread. I could go on. I’m genuinely astonished you claim to have worked in theatre for 30 years and don’t know this…

Show quote history

This isn't a universal experience and many theatres are thriving, hosting new shows by diverse talent and highlight diverse talent, new shows are going on tour all the time