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Original poster

Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

516 replies

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 15:31

Panto Dames have been a thing since 1806 when a certain Mr Simmons decided to play Mother Goose as a Witch (how original) rather than as a caring grandmother figure. Nowadays panto dames are mainly played by gay men in drag.

I think it's time for talented actresses to take back elder female roles from the tired tropes played by men since the Victorian era.

OP posts:
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taxi4ballet · 08/02/2026 22:37

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:02

But it's not the same as blackface and throwing that around as an equivalency isn't helping

(On a side note, yellow face is still a thing in Panto, with Aladdin, and Ballet, with The Nutcracker, that is only just being moved away from and only then slowly)

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You don't go the ballet much, do you?

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 22:36

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:22

I haven't made my mind up about what you meant

I'm saying your choice of words painted a particular image

You very clearly dismissed roles for women in "ttheatre"and then, when musicals with lots of female roles were listed, said "I meant plays not musicals" which is intrinsically linking "theatre" as meaning "plays"

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I have tried to explain myself and you still believe you know better.
in any event, mentioning musicals with female lead roles is only the tip of the iceberg which if you work in theatre, you would know. The numbers of production roles filled by women in musical theatre and straight theatre are really bad, all of which can be evidenced by recent statistics.
musical theatre may be doing ok but straight drama, both London based and regional are in real trouble. That was the point I was making which for some reason annoyed you.

EsmaCannonball · 08/02/2026 22:36

Hardly any pantos have a principal boy anymore. They should bring that back.

Original poster
SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:34

LeedsLoiner · 08/02/2026 22:22

Oh no it isn’t!!

Oh YES it is!!

OP posts:
Carla786 · 08/02/2026 22:34

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:25

No-one's saying get rid of panto - just allow actresses a chance to play female roles such as the Dame Panto or the Ugly Sisters.
Some women are already breaking in - no actress should be ruled out of playing a panto dame just because she's a woman. That's uber-ridiculous.

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The problem is that clearly the dame, for better or worse, is the draw for a lot of people.

If pantos changed fully to have women play the dame, would audiences still be as large? Hopefully yes...?

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:33

TofuTuesday · 08/02/2026 22:30

The … doesn’t negate earlier and other examples I made re: roles of older complex women being taken by men.

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The point is Miss Hannigan is a poor example because she is far more often played by a woman, with a few exceptions like CRH

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:31

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:25

No-one's saying get rid of panto - just allow actresses a chance to play female roles such as the Dame Panto or the Ugly Sisters.
Some women are already breaking in - no actress should be ruled out of playing a panto dame just because she's a woman. That's uber-ridiculous.

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And BTW, there are places now electing to having women play the Ugly Sisters (Kerry Katona and Katie Price did at one point)

Original poster
SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:30

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:28

In fact it's quite telling that almost all those you list are "fat" and even slightly "manly" female comedians

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Oh stop with your misogyny - they're extremely talented comedians who can bring a lot more skill to the role than the average mediocre male drag artist.

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taxi4ballet · 08/02/2026 22:30

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 21:34

Isn't the mum in Hairspray quite a positively portrayed character? I never know how I feel about John Waters stuff but from what I've heard of Hairspray, it's not women-hating.

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Panto Dames aren't women-hating either. Everybody is laughing at the silly man in a dress.

TofuTuesday · 08/02/2026 22:30

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:20

Claire Sweeney is playing her next year...

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The … doesn’t negate earlier and other examples I made re: roles of older complex women being taken by men.

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 22:29

taxi4ballet · 08/02/2026 22:27

Write one then. 🙂

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I wish I could but there are a lot of very talented women would be better at it than me.

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:28

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:23

The roles can be play differently by women and be every bit as funny.
Dawn French played a Dame in Jack and the Beanstalk a few years ago.
Other actresses I would like to see in these roles are Hannah Waddingham, Miranda Hart, Jennifer Saunders, Caroline Quentin, Sarah Milican and lots more besides.

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In fact it's quite telling that almost all those you list are "fat" and even slightly "manly" female comedians

taxi4ballet · 08/02/2026 22:27

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 21:26

That’s musical theatre. I’m talking about drama. In any case less than 9% of musicals are written by women. It’s dire.

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Write one then. 🙂

illsendansostotheworld · 08/02/2026 22:26

Ablondiebutagoody · 08/02/2026 15:38

The old, male, panto Dame is the main reason that I go. Plenty of other roles for everyone else.

Same here! Always my favourite character!

Original poster
SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:25

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 22:15

Imo that's the single biggest reason we should keep them.

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No-one's saying get rid of panto - just allow actresses a chance to play female roles such as the Dame Panto or the Ugly Sisters.
Some women are already breaking in - no actress should be ruled out of playing a panto dame just because she's a woman. That's uber-ridiculous.

OP posts:
GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:25

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:23

The roles can be play differently by women and be every bit as funny.
Dawn French played a Dame in Jack and the Beanstalk a few years ago.
Other actresses I would like to see in these roles are Hannah Waddingham, Miranda Hart, Jennifer Saunders, Caroline Quentin, Sarah Milican and lots more besides.

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I absolutely would not want to see any of those as a panto dame. It would not work in remotely the same way

In fact, I'd say with someone like Miranda (who's tv show made a lot of jokes about her being mannish) it would actually be more offensive

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 22:24

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:20

Claire Sweeney is playing her next year...

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Good, I think Miss Hannigan should be a female part.

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 22:24

SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:08

Showing your ankle in Victorian times was considered outrageous behaviour so having a young woman with her legs and thighs on full view must have been quite the treat for the average Victorian man going to see a panto.

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Hmm...I agree somewhat but Victorian ankle etc taboos have been retrospectively exaggerated somewhat. That applied to everyday middle-class dress, not theatre. On stage Victorians were already used to ballet dancers, breeches roles and music hall performers in tights, so principal boys weren’t some shocking new display. There might have been a bit of cheeky appeal, but pantomime was still family entertainment, not a leg show for men- as I've said ,burlesque and to some extent music hall were available as a more sleazy niche.

Original poster
SpringTimeIsRingTime · 08/02/2026 22:23

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:04

Panto Dame characters are not "female" though

As mentioned several times, the humour often comes from the fact the entire audience knows its a man

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The roles can be play differently by women and be every bit as funny.
Dawn French played a Dame in Jack and the Beanstalk a few years ago.
Other actresses I would like to see in these roles are Hannah Waddingham, Miranda Hart, Jennifer Saunders, Caroline Quentin, Sarah Milican and lots more besides.

OP posts:
LeedsLoiner · 08/02/2026 22:22

Oh no it isn’t!!

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:22

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 22:19

You have made your mind up about what I meant. You obviously believe you know my mind better than I do so there is absolutely no point whatsoever in me engaging with you any more.

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I haven't made my mind up about what you meant

I'm saying your choice of words painted a particular image

You very clearly dismissed roles for women in "ttheatre"and then, when musicals with lots of female roles were listed, said "I meant plays not musicals" which is intrinsically linking "theatre" as meaning "plays"

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 22:21

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:19

The villain roles are quite often female too, even gender swapped Captain Hook as I mentioned before

I've seen a couple of pantos where they tried to make the princess less "passive" too and give her more of a voice and a chance to fight for herself

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That sounds good re princesses. Captain Hook could definitely be an interesting role for an actress to have a chance at.

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:20

TofuTuesday · 08/02/2026 22:17

@GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday Craig Revel Harwood played Miss Hannigan, which I was referencing

Claire Sweeney is playing her next year...

Lobbygobbler · 08/02/2026 22:19

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:16

Linking theatre with plays as "but that's what I mean when I say theatre" is dismissing musicals

If you mean plays, say plays not theatre

Musicals showcase a wide variety of female leads, more women are producing and directing as well as stage managing and all those important backstage roles (trust me, I know several)

And lots of musicals are written by the same 2 or 3 men let's be real

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You have made your mind up about what I meant. You obviously believe you know my mind better than I do so there is absolutely no point whatsoever in me engaging with you any more.

GreenIsTheColourOfMyHoliday · 08/02/2026 22:19

Carla786 · 08/02/2026 22:16

Aha, I'd forgotten the good fairy. That's good. It's not as if the only available female characters in the stories are negative/passive princesses.

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The villain roles are quite often female too, even gender swapped Captain Hook as I mentioned before

I've seen a couple of pantos where they tried to make the princess less "passive" too and give her more of a voice and a chance to fight for herself