Time for Women with Talent to Take Back Older Female Roles in Pantos

Did you not read the OPs post that it was originally a part for women?
Sorry I don’t know which post now.

But Anyhow it is now a very different feel and script than years gone by. The Danes are just themselves.
think Dane Edna just doing their own character. Same as Les Dawson just doing his ADA sketch.

Did you not read the OPs post that it was originally a part for women?
Sorry I don’t know which post now.

But Anyhow it is now a very different feel and script than years gone by. The Danes are just themselves.
think Dane Edna just doing their own character. Same as Les Dawson just doing his ADA sketch.

What do you mean adapted back to how it’s always been? Historically and traditionally it’s always been played by a man.
The comedy of the character is based on that fact.

What you’re suggesting is changing the format and character of the traditional pantomime.

It absolutely could be adapted back to how it was originally intended though.

And each famous act that is hired to be themselves would be scripted in their own way. Such as Julian Clary would be very sexualised or back in the day Les Dawson would have done his own act. Nothing to do with the panto really just adapted

The role of the dame is written for a man. It’s not meant to be played by an older woman.
The humour is directly related to it being played by a man. The op has completely ignored that fact.

young woman though.

I think that’s OP’s point.

Where are the older women’s roles in panto? Taken by older gay men

I disagree, you've gone back for some of those names and I could too for the female stars - Ruth Madoc and Cilla Black being the two that immediently come to mind

Su Pollard especially is not a "star turn" but is a well known and well respected panto star and plenty of the others play into pantos year after year.

Smaller venues with their well known casts every year are also valid, those men and women are local celebrities

I've worked on and watched too many pantos now, they are formulaic and work off set patterns. If you watch a Crossroads or Imagine panto, they are very samey but if you go to other companies you'll find a bit more variety

young woman though.

I think that’s OP’s point.

Where are the older women’s roles in panto? Taken by older gay men

And what about the fact that the "principal boy" i.e. male, romantic lead, is always played by a woman? Thoughts?

I thought most ballet companies these days were pretty international.

At one point in the '70s, we went to Goldilocks at Weymouth Pavilion, and they had real bearcubs on stage at one point. Wouldn't happen now, for the same reason we don't have circuses with animals any more.

I detest audience participation, so have never been keen on panto, but one year when my German boyfriend was over, I got him to sit through a panto on TV. I explained there are very set roles, like the dame, the principal boy, the fairy godmother, the baddy, regardless of whichever story it actually is, plus audience participation in terms "oh yes it is! Oh no it isn't!" and "look behind you!" And the general silliness is the whole point of it. I don't think he quite got it. (Nor Morris dancers, when I ended up accidentally at a Morris festival with him.) But I'm ambivalent about who plays a dame. I'm sure some female actors would fo it splendidly, but panto is very much about tradition.

Really?

Foreigners doing things differently to the way we do things. Fancy that.

You've given a handful of female stars but I just don't think it compares to the roster of men who are the local regulars in the big city pantos each year, and who are essentially guaranteed the gig. With the exception of Elaine C Smith, if you had to form a list of renowned panto performers - it is mostly men.
Allan Stewart, Stanley Baxter, Julian Clary, Christopher Biggins, Clive Rowe etc.

I feel the women you mentioned get to do a star turn rather than being part of the main regular gang. It is different in smaller venues and you do have to remove community panto from this as it is usually the same people playing the same parts each year - it really depends on who turns up to auditions and who's willing to don the Dame's frock!

Just my personal opinion. I have stopped seeing some of the big name pantos as they are a bit repetitive and boring now, dare I say. Same joke sequences repeated each year, little plot. When you've seen 4/5 years in a row, it's all much the same but costumes etc always pretty spectacular. You should always support your local panto though!
I've worked in theatre a long time, and am perhaps starting to feel a bit jaded which is colouring my perspective.

But companies performing in Britain don't have to be British

You've given a handful of female stars but I just don't think it compares to the roster of men who are the local regulars in the big city pantos each year, and who are essentially guaranteed the gig. With the exception of Elaine C Smith, if you had to form a list of renowned panto performers - it is mostly men.
Allan Stewart, Stanley Baxter, Julian Clary, Christopher Biggins, Clive Rowe etc.

I feel the women you mentioned get to do a star turn rather than being part of the main regular gang. It is different in smaller venues and you do have to remove community panto from this as it is usually the same people playing the same parts each year - it really depends on who turns up to auditions and who's willing to don the Dame's frock!

Just my personal opinion. I have stopped seeing some of the big name pantos as they are a bit repetitive and boring now, dare I say. Same joke sequences repeated each year, little plot. When you've seen 4/5 years in a row, it's all much the same but costumes etc always pretty spectacular. You should always support your local panto though!
I've worked in theatre a long time, and am perhaps starting to feel a bit jaded which is colouring my perspective.

And not forgetting Acorn Antiques The Musical, The Light in the Piazza, Calendar Girls The Musical, Bad Girls The Musical...

but there's just a handful of leading roles for older women. Dolly, Gypsy, Miss Hannigan, Reno Sweeney, Norma Desmond, Mrs Lovett...definitely a few more but I am sure you can see where I am coming from.

Mame
Dear World
A Little Night Music
Follies
70, Girls, 70
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Ballroom
The King & I
Prettybelle
Into the Woods
Victor/Victoria

All of these have the lead or joint lead who is (usually played by) middle aged or older. Calamity Jane and Annie Get Your Gun have often had a lead in her 40s. There are plenty more, these are just ones that sprang to mind.

Follies and 70, Girls are chock full of older women. Then there are musicals with a large supporting part or two for middle or older women like Oklahoma, Sound of Music, Carousel, Candide, Company, Kiss of the Spider Woman, 12 of the Gilbert and Sullivan shows, Chicago, Titanic, Nine...

Obviously some of those are better known in the US than here but, really, in musicals, there is far less imbalance than people assume.

Apologies, I've not actually read your posts. Just added my two cents into the discussion generally.
I do think Shakespeare falls rather differently - there is across the board much more role and gender swapping built into the material and so is in the general culture of institutions like the RSC.
I think both the RSC and the NT get things really right in terms of the material they choose to produce, how they cast it -and also how they choose to shape or re-shape productions. They're inclusive and representative in a way that I think traditional musical theatre and pantomime need to be very careful that they're not edging away from.
I saw The Welkin at the NT, and it was a real loss to us culturally that the production was stalled because of covid and missed it's recorded NT Live slot. I would pay very good money to see that again. Sorry - I digress!

Was it wrong for Stephen Fry to play Lady Bracknell - no, course not. He's a brilliant performer who would've delivered a fantastic comedic performance - it works for the role.
Mature women are under-represented on the musical theatre stage though, especially beyond one-dimensional roles.
It was good to be reminded of Glenda Jackson and Fiona Shaw, but I would say Cynthia Erivo and Sarah Snook are both still young women not yet in their 40s, so only just starting to approach middle age.
There are many great parts for men of all ages across musical theatre, there are many parts for young women across musical theatre, but there's just a handful of leading roles for older women. Dolly, Gypsy, Miss Hannigan, Reno Sweeney, Norma Desmond, Mrs Lovett...definitely a few more but I am sure you can see where I am coming from.
I am thinking through the lens of mainstream 'commercial' musicals here rather than operettas. Maybe more parts just need to be written!

We should have more queer or non-gendered roles.
We need more queer storylines.
We should have more gender blind casting.
With all that being said we should also ensure that the certain demographic of mature woman is not being pushed further off the stage.

I am fortunate in that my family have worked professionally in theatre across multiple generations, so I would say I have a good grasp of the history and a good knowledge of lots of different shows. This is just my observation from the past few years - I have my own experience in being on the receiving end of a bit more misogyny in the industry also but I wouldn't say thats representative of the industry as a whole and just my particular slice of it. You get arseholes wherever you work unfortunately!

I will add one last thing though which is some of these old school musicals are really very racist. There's been some good re-workings of them to update for modern audiences - I think Anything Goes did well with re-shaping the two Chinese converts. Rightsholders definitely need to be open to some script re-shaping otherwise some of these musicals will be left in the past. If you adjust some of the problematic elements, there's still some good stories there and lovely music that absolutely bodies some of the modern slop we're getting. Lots of people will disagree with me on this, but I found Heathers to be unwatchable despite liking the film.
To give context I am not an older woman myself - I am in my early thirties.

Give over, it's panto.

And not all panto dames are gay men.

The reverse isn't seen where male roles are being converted for female performers - or at least I can't think of any off the top of my head. Happy to stand corrected.

I mentioned two earlier. Michelle Terry (artistic director The Globe) played Richard III last year and previously played Hamlet. Glenda Jackson played King Lear a few years back.

Fiona Shaw played Richard II in 1995. Sarah Snook did her one-performer Dorian Gray last year. Cynthia Erivo is about to do her one-performer Dracula. There are more than people think. The RSC is regularly giving male roles to women.

It also dates back further than you might realise. Sarah Bernhardt played Hamlet in the late 1800s. There are several 'trouser roles' in opera and operetta, such as Count Orlofsky in Die Fledermaus.

In the amateur world, I have seen women play men's roles quite often, especially in Shakespeare. However with modern plays to do so requires permission from the rightsholders which is often not forthcoming.

Stephen Fry's recent Lady Bracknell is not the first time that's happened but bearing in mind the subtext of the play, and people pretending to be someone else, it seems to me to be dramatically defensible.

The reverse isn't seen where male roles are being converted for female performers - or at least I can't think of any off the top of my head. Happy to stand corrected.

I mentioned two earlier. Michelle Terry (artistic director The Globe) played Richard III last year and previously played Hamlet. Glenda Jackson played King Lear a few years back.

Fiona Shaw played Richard II in 1995. Sarah Snook did her one-performer Dorian Gray last year. Cynthia Erivo is about to do her one-performer Dracula. There are more than people think. The RSC is regularly giving male roles to women.

It also dates back further than you might realise. Sarah Bernhardt played Hamlet in the late 1800s. There are several 'trouser roles' in opera and operetta, such as Count Orlofsky in Die Fledermaus.

In the amateur world, I have seen women play men's roles quite often, especially in Shakespeare. However with modern plays to do so requires permission from the rightsholders which is often not forthcoming.

Stephen Fry's recent Lady Bracknell is not the first time that's happened but bearing in mind the subtext of the play, and people pretending to be someone else, it seems to me to be dramatically defensible.