To think that no racist ever admits they are a racist

That your comment that anyone stating that the word racist / racism is being overused or that actual racism is less prevalent than assumed is something that a racist would say is clearly incorrect.

In your view to even question the level of racism in society is in itself evidence of racism.

It's a medieval mindset where anyone questioning the level of witchcraft in society is in itself suggestive of evidence of witchcraft by that person.

That poster said "have concerns" and you changed that to "despise". Why was that?

@MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack
"Re the 12.06 post, I can't really comment on why the poster said that @Netcurtainnelly sounded racist to her- @BillieWiper would need to explain that for herself."

Well i didnt say that you should be able to, but you did ask for specific examples.

I don't think witches exist do they? And don't see what they've got to do with racism?

Isn't that a bit like someone saying "there's not a lot of witchcraft around these days" being exactly something that an actual witch might say?

I hear the "I'm not racist but" but I'm hearing " I think. ... And I don't care if that makes me racist.

The term " racist" has been overused by some disingenuous people to shut down an arguement they are losing, but this devalues and has devalued the reality of the term.

As regards the definition being " if the person to whom the comment is made feels it is, then it is " will lead to possible bias in reporting incidents, but what is a better way?

Fear of the different is a reasonable anxiety and the allocation of asylum seekers has been more impactful on certain communities far more than other more privileged and more able to articulate their position than those who are living with said asylum seekers.

A person claiming asylum could be from any race, black, brown or white. All races are suffering somewhere.

People's feelings are generally due to misconceptions, but some are based on a personal experience.

Those convinced of race hate crimes such as those from last year's riots - have their been indoctrinated out of their racism whilst in prison? Or do they still feel what they did to get themselves convicted but with more ginger due their perceived treatment?
And what can be done about it?

@MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack Also it was her opener of saying 'racism as a word is overused'. Or something similar.

That's also exactly the kind of thing a racist would say and kind of proves the entire point of the OP.

Yeah. It's because she was saying there must be something wrong with people who don't despise/have prejudice/fear against 'illegal immigrants'. Most of whom are actually asylum seekers and not illegal anything.

To me there's 'something wrong' with people who say things like that as it sounds racist.

Do yeah, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Not necessarily. My mum is one of those casual racists that doesn’t like it until you point it out and then she admits it. As in she’s not voting Reform or anything but holds what I’d call old fashioned views on it.

I think we should all be aware that we as a species are vulnerable to racism... ie to feeling racist. We've evolved in small groups of people who look exactly like us. Children show a preference for the colour skin they are most familiar with. And when we feel under threat we look for the threat outside our close group, and look to protect those in our immediate group.
I think we can overcome this instinct within ourselves but it's harder if we can't admit to ourselves that it's there.

I've heard my children say racist things. Do I think they are little racists at heart? No. But they are part of the society they've grown up in. They watch ( limited, but some ) TV. Do they need to be shown the wrongness of what they have thought/ said? Yes- its not automatic knowledge.

Firstly I think that there is currently a supply / demand imbalance of racism.

Of course historically there were significant numbers of the UK population that disliked or were suspicious of people of colour. This is part was out of ignorance and over time I genuinely believe that most people in the UK are not racist.

Of course there will continue to be racist comments for example if someone nabbed a parking space in front of you you might profane "f'ing ginger t*t" or whatever. But is this racism based on a deep seated dislike of that sex, skin colour, sexuality, physical appearance of the person nabbing the parking space or simply (and partly through ignorance) adding an unnecessary physical description to the insult when "f'ing t*t" would have been sufficient.

Equally I think there are more people wanting to shout "racism or that's racist" or claim examples of racism, out of white virtue signalling, than there is actually real examples of racism.

Lastly I really think that the best way to combat racism is to just stop going on about skin colour or bringing it into every debate.

Why can't we just judge people by the content of their and their achievements where their skin colour is completely irrelevant.

Wow. I have never heard anyone proudly say they are racist. Only the 'I am not a racist but' version.

@rockingrollerthey proudly stated they were racist and immigration is the issue.

Honestly, I have never once heard someone say "I'm not racist but..." without it being followed by something that is actually racist. If you know that you're not about to say something racist, you don't generally have to preface your words with such a disclaimer.

Is it possible that someone might say "I'm not racist but..." followed by a completely non-racist comment? Well, yes, in theory it is, but I have never encountered this in the real world.

Re the 12.06 post, I can't really comment on why the poster said that @Netcurtainnelly sounded racist to her- @BillieWiper would need to explain that for herself.

Personally, I would not have responded in that particular way to that particular post - from my perspective, there wasn't really enough substance to warrant a response to that post at all. However, I am less than convinced that the bit which gave rise to the allegations of "sounding racist" was simply the expression of concerns around illegal immigration per se. Far more likely, I think, that it was a combination of the claim that the word racism is used far too often (an argument very commonly propounded by people who are clearly racist but don't like being labelled as such) with the assertion that there must somehow be something wrong with anyone who does not automatically share the poster's concerns. But it is not for me to speak for other posters so I will let @BillieWiper explain why she said what she said.

Its not a parallel at all. How can criticism of a specific actions taken by a specific government possibly be racism against a group of people, some of whom are governed by that administration? Would anyone say that criticism of the Labour government is an 'ism' against British people?
Saying someone sounds racist because they're 'concerned about immigration' is typically linking behaviour to belief. Because while not everyone who is 'concerned about immigration' is racist, all racists are 'concerned about immigration'. So unfortunately a link has been established between one and the other. It would be hugely helpful in breaking that if the 'concerned' anti racists gave some indication of their support for anti racism alongside expressing their concern about immigration, then we could more easily identify who were the 'concerned' and who were the racists. Unfortunately they tend not to.

On the 1st page in the 1st few replies, there are two blanket statements along the lines of anyone who says "im not racist but..." is probably racist.

Then at 12:06 we have our first "Well i think you sound racist", in response to someone saying its not racist to be concerned about immigration. (Arguably a direct parallel to your, "its not anti semitic to be critical of the Israeli govt.)

Thats just page 1, I expect there are more.

Could you highlight the specific examples that you're referring to, and why you think someone has been unfairly accused?

I think blatantly racist people will often own it as they genuinely believe their own vitriol. People who say they are not racist often believe they are not but don’t connect their actions /behaviours that suggest otherwise.

it’s the same with misogyny/homophobia etc

Out of interest, do you believe that racist white people and those who defend them and tell them the answer is to 'take back our country' are standing outside synagogues in an expression of support for Jewish people? That those who want the UK 'back' to a white Christian country will make an exception for Jewish people once they've got rid of Muslims? Because while there's a lot of noise from the right about anti semiticism at the moment, because they've found a way to use it to malign 'the left', support for ethnic and cultural minorities isn't really their bag, is it?

It varies. Often includes sweeping generalisations. Racist rhetoric. Disinformation. Deliberate fearmongering. It takes many forms.

As does antisemitism.

I agree with most of that. But I think even in this short thread, there are some of examples of people being accused (or at least insinuations) of racism who have not used racist rhetoric. My belief is that if your actual goal were a less polarised, less divided and less racist society, you wouldn't innoculate people against accusations of racism in this way, enabling people to shrug them off as nonsense. If your goal was a 5 second feeling of smugness and superiority over someone online with no regard for long term consequences, you would act in exactly this way.

So what do you consider “expressed in a racist manner”?

I think it depends on how the concerns are expressed.

Having concerns about immigration does not automatically make you racist. I know people who are concerned about immigration who I do not consider to be racist. But a lot of people who have concerns about immigration express those concerns in very racist rhetoric. That understandably leads to the conclusion that they are racist. If they were not racist, they would find a better way to express their concerns.

In the same way, having concerns about the Israeli government does not automatically make you antisemitic. But a lot of people express these concerns in very antisemitic rhetoric. IMO, that makes them antisemitic and therefore racist. If they were not antisemitic, they would find a better way to express their concerns.

We have to be able to have conversations about the pros and cons of immigration, and it cannot be taboo to express concerns about the way in which it is managed. I don't think people are racist for raising such concerns unless they express themselves in a racist manner.

We have to be able to criticise the Israeli government, just as we might criticise the US government, the Iranian government or the Russian government. Israel should not be held to higher standards than anyone else, but equally, it should not be immune from criticism either.

The problem arises when people use issues around immigration or the Israeli government's actions in Gaza as vehicles for the expression of their hate towards particular groups. The issues just become an excuse.

As a matter of interest, assuming you live in England, how would you feel if the Scottish Government had a long standing policy to take over England and make everyone Scottish accepting all Scottish policies or die ,organised its forces to attack the Glastonbury festival killing and raping thousands of fesitival goers, men women and children. Kidnapping some and taking them back to Scotland. How would you like the English government to react? (Let’s just say for sake of argument those Scottish policies inc medieval laws punishing being gay with possible death, heavy curtailing womens rights, involved in terrorist activity. Say the Scottish government were backed by Russia.

What would you have liked the English government to do. How would you feel if you were bombarded with media and social media supporting Scotland?

Speaking only for yourself there 😬