What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

The point I was trying to make in this context is that individual men can and should be challenging things where they see them but it will take more than that to fundamentally change anything.

Of course not but that’s exactly what I’m saying, yes I am a hypocrite because I haven’t overthrown the dominant power structures. I’m not saying I completely stand back, but I’ve not started a revolution either.

Men need to step up don’t they?

Yes not all men... But all men, including the good guys, need to call out bad male behaviour when they witness it. Most don’t.

How did you manage to have your daughters? Did you use an evil man? What about if you would have boys?

Men on sex chats won't necessarily be a representative group...but I agree it's a lot more than we want to think.

A lot of men are actively evil. Many more are, at best, self-centred and see women primarily as a resource they make can use of, mostly for sex, free domestic labour and children. They don't love women, they love what women do for them. Don't gaslight your daughter. She has her wits about her.

I always thought what a relief it would be if my DD were gay. I don’t think I’d worry about her as much.

Yep, this is so true. I have ‘watched’ myself waste many years pursuing relationships which were not worth pursuing (with men who cheated, or strung me along/used me, etc etc). I had an incredible determination not to give up on these relationships, I worked on ‘bettering’ myself (to become a more fun interesting gf, better cook etc) in the hope that men would find me more appealing. And all the while I knew they weren’t worth it and I constantly wished I had the same attitude/ ambition/ resilience in my professional life. My head always knew what was important but I wasn’t able to do much about it when I felt lonely or unloved, I just had to try and try to find and keep love.
The way I see it, it’s like a pyramid of needs where the need to be loved comes before the need for career progression, hobbies, etc. Until that need is met, some women are unable to focus on anything else.

Exactly! Keep the man bashing on those she mentions. No arguing needed.

If it helps to put a more positive spin on this, rather than using emotional and mental energy in hating men, the flip side is to expend it on supporting and uplifting women. When I find myself dwelling on the negativity and harms created by men and it feels depressing, I cheer myself up by thinking of all the excellent things women are doing to offset it and what I can do to contribute. I'm fortunate that I work with women, for women, so I get lots of opportunity. But even small connections and acts of support for other women are balm for the soul when it all feels a bit bleak.

Exactly this. Almost every awful thing that's happened to me in my life has been because of a man.

You can say to her that she's saving herself a lot of grief and isn't going to miss out on much, if she sticks to her mindset.

.. and i have a daughter too, and am doing this for her and everyone elses daughters too.

Ask her where it is coming from? Is it social media? I would say seeing the growth in misogyny among young men I can understand how jaded she feels.

Just tell her to stay off social media, and make sure she curates her circle VERY carefully with zero tolerance in her life for misogynist men and boys.

Point her to positive male role models and not that plenty of great men exist.

You’re amazed easily. I think the deluded ones are the parents who think their precious boys could NEVA be abusive a-holes, and as a result don’t put the work in socialising them properly, then get a shock later down the road.
My son knows he is loved.. part of loving him is teaching him right from wrong, and to respect people, especially women and girls. Crack on and judge me for that if you please, people like you are part of the problem.

Just take a look at every major story on the BBC News website today. What other conclusion would expect her to draw unless she was very blinkered?

It’s because I’m not being “nice” and “kind”. Or subjugating myself on the altar of patriarchy. That’s literally it. It’s so pathetic.

There is nothing wrong with that this poster has written. She has said that she is aware her son has the potential to be another shitty man, which he does, because he is male, but she and her husband have the awareness and are doing everything they can to try to make him one of the good ones. It’s the right thing to do.

I have a son too and feel the same. If you aren’t aware that any boy has the potential to grow up into a bad man, you are naive. Being aware, talking about the issues with them, modelling and expecting good behaviour and respect for women, letting them know why women often feel threatened by men’s behaviour etc gives the best chance of raising a son to be a good man. I don’t disapprove of my son, I disapprove of how many men behave and my son doesn’t behave that way because of how he has been raised. If you don’t have these conversations and leave them to act like other boys at school because you’re scared to offend them, you’ll have problems

My son is almost 23 and from what I have seen, the way he respects everyone, his sister, me, the way he treats female friends, I think he is a good man. He doesn’t take offence when we or his female friends have these conversations because he acknowledges that there is a problem with a lot of men unfortunately. He doesn’t feel the need to say NAMALT as he knows he isn’t, he knows his dad isn’t etc. The good men can listen without taking offence because if they are truly good, you aren’t talking about them!

This sums it up for me. Beautifully written.

I'm amazed someone would have this view of their own son.

Do you really sit there secretly judging him as a male, half-expecting him to turn into the next Jeffrey Epstien? Maybe you actually express this to him? If not, do you ever wonder if he can tell that you disapprove of him?

You say you love him endlessly, but I suspect from they way you talk that you'd love him slightly more if he was a girl. Perhaps he suspects that too.

Great quote

Still hoping dd is a lesbian. I don't want to see her hope in love destroyed like mine has been repeatedly. Men really need to open their eyes and do the work if they actually want to have families and long worthwhile relationships.

You are deluded. Utterly, utterly deluded if you think you can guarantee that your son and his peers have never and will never abuse women. To even be able to make that claim is so troubling. I sincerely hope you have absolutely nothing to do with the health or wellbeing of women in your working or personal life because to make a blanket claim like that about a group of men you happen to know is outrageous and demonstrates a distinct and significant lack of awareness. It’s genuinely shocking.

But it is to fail to acknowledge that of that 90%, they represent a tiny proportion of the country's or indeed the world's male population.

It’s not misandrist to acknowledge that 90% of violent crime is committed by men…