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Hypocrisy in how we frame abuse. UK grooming gangs vs Epstein

156 replies

Bowcup · 02/02/2026 09:53

I’m struggling with the inconsistency in how these cases are discussed.

Epstein wasn’t a one-off predator. It was a vast, organised trafficking operation that ran for years, across multiple locations, with dozens (if not hundreds) of victims, recruiters, enablers, and powerful men in the background.

And the girls he targeted weren’t random.

They were overwhelmingly:

  • white
  • working-class
  • often from care, unstable homes, or financial hardship
  • chosen precisely because they were unlikely to be believed or protected

That victim profile is identical to what we hear about in UK grooming cases.

Yet the framing couldn’t be more different.

UK grooming gangs → race, culture, religion endlessly foregrounded
Epstein → “elite abuse of power”, “institutional failure”, “one monstrous individual”

What makes this harder to swallow is that most sexual exploitation in the UK is not carried out by minority groups at all.

According to ONS data and multiple serious case reviews, the majority of perpetrators of group-based child sexual exploitation are white British men. That includes street grooming, online grooming, and organised exploitation. But those cases rarely become cultural flashpoints.

So why is it that:

  • when offenders are from a minority background, it’s treated as a racial or cultural problem
  • but when offenders are white, wealthy, or powerful, it’s treated as an individual moral failing?

Why wasn’t Epstein discussed as:

“White men exploiting vulnerable white girls is a systemic problem”?

Why didn’t we have wall-to-wall discussion about class, care leavers, and the disposability of poor girls?

It feels like race becomes the story when it’s available as an explanation, and disappears when it would force us to look at who actually holds power.

I’m not denying patterns matter. They do.
But if we’re serious about safeguarding, we can’t selectively apply that logic.

Because right now it looks less like protecting girls and more like choosing who we’re comfortable blaming.

OP posts:
Bringemout · 03/02/2026 12:04

Yeah I don’t get how you even start the conversation “hey mate, hows aunty shabnam… the kids alright? Listen I got two 15 yr olds I’ve injected with heroin, you wanna come around”.

These people are fucking depraved and it points to a specific cultural problem within these particular families and the attitude towards females generally, children and specifically white females. One of the things that came up was cousin marriage, no-one says anything even if they don’t like it because everyone you associate with is family.

One thing that came out of epstein for me was how many men seem to be hebephiles. Fucking revolting.

Treacling · 03/02/2026 11:03

A quick google brings up the Evans brothers which was high profile as apparently unusual

Treacling · 03/02/2026 10:59

Why do people use the term ‘Asian’ grooming gangs not Pakistani Grooming gangs/ Rape gangs? I am not aware of it being Chinese or Japanese men involved. Tho I am happy to be corrected.

If it wasn’t Asian men then on this thread it appears we are tripping over to be culturally sensitive rather than factual. Is that due to worries about perception?

What I find alarming regarding rape gangs is the amount of relatives involved. How does it go from having a family meal to organise the rape and torture of girls with your brother or your cousin? Threatening to firebomb houses. Etc. Then family members campaigned outside court in support of abusers. I think that family members joining together to rape needs investigating more.

Are girls in these extended families at risk? Are the girls treated correctly and removed into care if it’s appropriate? It suggests it’s acceptable in some families to rape because if not where are the reports of men going to the police and saying ‘my cousin/co worker/ brother asked me to rape a girl with him’.

How do you go from having a family meal together - to raping and torturing girls on dirty mattresses in takeaways together? I am not naive and I work with mainly men but this is surely a huge risk to girls and women in their family and surely some men said ‘no mate that’s wrong’ so why did they cover it up too? Or did they report it and the police failed to take action?
Do some cultures have a history of families raping together?
How did they choose which friends to ask? Were other family involved but loyalties mean they can’t mention names?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/08/twelve-men-sentenced-for-sexual-exploitation-of-keighley-teenager

This guardian article lists men at the bottom - brothers and half brothers. Poor behaviour in the dock. Humiliation of children. Police, teachers knowing. And it’s the first one I stumbled on when googling.

The pellicot case showed men getting together online via a website of a shared interest. Rape gangs knew each other face to face as friend, family and coworkers. If this does not have a cultural element does that mean we have many cousins and brothers over Britain raping together?

Rape Gang Enquiry - Fiona Goddard is giving evidence today and has waived her right to anonymity- very brave woman.

Twelve men sentenced for sexual exploitation of Keighley teenager

Girl was 13 when men aged from 19 to 63 began sexual abuse, including daylight gang rape near town centre

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/08/twelve-men-sentenced-for-sexual-exploitation-of-keighley-teenager

EasternStandard · 03/02/2026 10:46

Owly11 · 03/02/2026 07:54

The 'reporting' problem with the Asian grooming gangs was that it was covered up and denied to be real by police, agencies and the press precisely because of the race issue. So the problem was exactly the other way round from how you present it.

Yes good point.

Everanewbie · 03/02/2026 10:40

Talking about Pakistani rape gangs is not "side lining" anything. Raising awareness for prostate cancer in middle age men is not "side lining" breast cancer awareness. The presence of other evils doesn't detract from said evil's impact and horror.

In any case, do you honestly think that the Epstein case is under reported? Do you ever see any talking heads on TV trying to minimise Epstein and his associates with crap like "well, the majority of sex offences are perpetrated by working class men, so we shouldn't single out international billionaires"?

I am sorry that the undeniable truth, that a certain section of the Pakistani community, a sizeable minority, deem it culturally acceptable to groom and systematically abuse white (and Sikh) vulnerable girls, with the cooperation and participation of the extended family, offends your world view that minorities are somewhere near the top of the hierarchy of victimhood, and that the white man is the ultimate villain.

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 08:09

Most of the men who raped the girls will never be brought to justice, the sheer number of rapes experienced by some of these girls means there are men walking around who paid to rape a little girl or settled a debt with a rape and they will never be brought to justice. The grooming gangs used personal networks so the vast majority of rapes were by other Pakistani men.

I think if anything the proportion of offenders who are of Pakistani ethnicity is actually going to be much higher than we will ever know. No not just pakistani men rape, we all know that.

Whats unusual about these specific cases is how many people operated in family groups, including one family where one of the leaders son’s would turn up in his school uniform. This is a very specific crime, men were able to call up loads of other men on their phone list who were family members and invite them to rape children. I think most of us come from families where if someone phoned you up and offered you a drunk child you would decline. It’s not in the numbers it’s in the details of the offending that make this different. Tbf it’s extraordinary to me that Epstein got away with it for as long as he did and that he found so many fellow perverts. But the manner of offending in the UK grooming gangs is culturally very specific.

Owly11 · 03/02/2026 07:54

The 'reporting' problem with the Asian grooming gangs was that it was covered up and denied to be real by police, agencies and the press precisely because of the race issue. So the problem was exactly the other way round from how you present it.

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 07:50

Bowcup · 03/02/2026 07:41

Epstein said he didn’t want any black girls on Epstein island. He specifically targeted white girls. The same type of victim that the grooming gangs targeted.

His clients were also predominantly white. Thats the point, the rotherham groomers were predominantly from one ethnicity and their victims were predominantly from another. That is different from the UK grooming gangs issue which is a very specific thing.

Bowcup · 03/02/2026 07:41

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 05:19

This, they aren’t they same dynamic. If Epstein and his perverts had primarily been raping black children for example that would have been more directly comparable.

Epstein said he didn’t want any black girls on Epstein island. He specifically targeted white girls. The same type of victim that the grooming gangs targeted.

OP posts:
Bowcup · 03/02/2026 07:39

This is where the discussion often gets muddled.

Yes, in some specific towns there is an overrepresentation of suspects from certain ethnic backgrounds relative to their local population. Baroness Casey is clear on that, and no one is disputing it.

But when you look at national data across all child sexual abuse and exploitation, white British men are not underrepresented. In many offence categories they are overrepresented compared to other ethnic groups.

ONS data, NSPCC figures, and Home Office analyses consistently show that:

  • the majority of offenders are white British men
  • this remains true when looking at rates across the whole system, not just a handful of towns
  • group-based exploitation is a small subset of overall abuse, and concentrating only on that subset distorts the picture

So while per-capita arguments can highlight local clustering, they don’t justify turning those cases into a national cultural explanation, especially when the wider data shows white men committing the majority of offences and doing so across every context, including family abuse, online grooming, care settings, and organised exploitation.

That’s why I keep coming back to access and institutions.

Girls in care and working-class girls are the most exposed group nationally. Who exploits them depends largely on who has access to them in a given area, not on religion or ethnicity.

My issue is not acknowledging difficult statistics. It’s the way selective statistics are used to tell one type of story, while equally important national patterns are quietly sidelined.

OP posts:
HelmholtzWatson · 03/02/2026 06:32

According to ONS data and multiple serious case reviews, the majority of perpetrators of group-based child sexual exploitation are white British men.

That's because the majority of men in the UK are white and British....

Baroness Casey's report found an overrepresentation of men from Asian ethnic backgrounds (specifically Pakistani) among suspects in areas Rotherham where 64% of suspects were of Pakistani ethnic background, and Greater Manchester where 52% of offenders were recorded as Asian.

Asians make up less than 10% of the UK population, and 2.5% are Pakistani...

DeftGoldHedgehog · 03/02/2026 05:46

Maaate · 02/02/2026 10:41

The issue with the Rochdale grooming gangs was with the way the victims were treated by the authorities which in itself was based on the race of the perpetrators.

It was also based on misogyny, sex and class that the girls were seen as disposable, worthless and that they didn't matter. By the authorities as well as by the perpetrators. The police and social services thought the girls were making "a lifestyle choice". Lots of parallels with the Epstein victims and how people saw them.

Look at how the mainstream press wrote about women and girls only five minutes ago. Horrific sexism, double standards and misogyny. All part of the same culture and it's global. Many men see certain women and girls as objects for them to abuse and dispose of, if they can get away with it.

Barrellturn · 03/02/2026 05:35

I had assumed (having tried not to read details) that the age of the victims of the grooming gangs was far lower than the Epstein victims who were late teens (I think?) That is relevant when we are a society that only recently had countdown timers for girls turning 16 in national newspapers. The power and celebrity aspect also allows people to put blame on the victims and minimise it. Weren't they enjoying the high life? They'll say. "They got to mix with royalty!"

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 05:25

Also I would be delighted to see anyone who raped a child with Epstein's help imprisoned (executed if I’m being completely honest). But this is americas problem to solve, ours is grooming gangs we need to focus in cleaning up whats going on in the UK and we have plenty of evidence that race and religion played a significant role in the offending against children in the UK.

I feel like theres a lot of effort to minimise the race/culture/religious aspect of grooming gang offending in the UK and frankly I think it’s a barrier to justice. Can’t solve a problem if you can’t name it. I’m asian, I don’t give a fuck if some people are uncomfortable about being honest, I care more about the safety of children in our society than people feeling stigmatised.

Bringemout · 03/02/2026 05:19

GeneralPeter · 02/02/2026 10:27

It’s mainly because the stories are different.

When the story was Catholic church abuse, the religion of the perpetrators was a major and widely-discussed factor (we call it ‘Catholic church abuse’), becuase it helps explain what was distinctive about the abuse, why it remained covered up for so long, and what sorts of things might be needed to fix it. Rightly, it was central.

When the story was the Rochdale, and other, grooming gangs, race and religion was ditto, so it was prominent.

With Epstein’s abusive circle, the most distinctive thing is power and wealth: it’s the common factor amongst those implicated, it’s what gave them a sense of impunity, and it’s how Epstein kept his hold on people.

Different stories, so different lenses are relevant.

We could have a national debate about what’s wrong with Jewish culture and the authorities’ attitudes to Jewish sensibilities that it permitted this, but that would seem to miss the target in this case. Do you think?

Edited

This, they aren’t they same dynamic. If Epstein and his perverts had primarily been raping black children for example that would have been more directly comparable.

PollyBell · 03/02/2026 02:55

Doingtheboxerbeat · 03/02/2026 02:51

OP, all I know is that the venn diagram between the men who protest outside the migrant hotels to protect the women and girls and those who bend over backwards to defend Trump who is a massive criminal predator is a big fat circle .
YANB entirely U.

Yes women still breed with the men outside the hotels and the trump supporters and then create victims and perpetrators and hand the children to the perpetrators of the crimes and the cycle continues

Doingtheboxerbeat · 03/02/2026 02:51

OP, all I know is that the venn diagram between the men who protest outside the migrant hotels to protect the women and girls and those who bend over backwards to defend Trump who is a massive criminal predator is a big fat circle .
YANB entirely U.

nothanks2026 · 03/02/2026 02:49

Treacling · 02/02/2026 10:06

Any man abusing children needs to be locked up. Prince Andrew and anyone else British implicated in Epstein should be banned from the USA and any other country with sense should follow suit.

If a Brit paedo is in Spain, then Spain would be crazy not to return them to us.

If American peados are here deport them to the USA for them to deal with. If that means a 99 year sentence in an awful jail then so be it. If they want Prince Andrew then fly him there at tax payer expense. If his wife knew and the USA want to speak to her then send her there with him.

I think the same about the rape gangs - deport anyone who has a second passport. Lock up anyone who was part of it (or the cover up) regardless of who they are. If that’s MPs and police officers I’m okay with that. If it’s family members providing alibis I’m okay with that too.

I have no sympathy for any sex offender. Deport anyone we can to minimise the risk to my children and their friends.

If the state won’t help prosecute crowd fund for private prosecutions.

I think the inconsistency lies in everyday average people are happy to discuss Epstein and how atrocious it is. They are worried about discussing rape gangs for fear of being accused of racism. All these men need to be in prison for a very long time.

Agreed.

PollyBell · 03/02/2026 02:37

And where are the parents in all this? handing these children over to these men

canuckup · 03/02/2026 02:37

Whether they are billionaires (Bill Gates) or a poor market stall holder in West Yorkshire, if they can, they will rape women.

That's the crux of the matter.

canuckup · 03/02/2026 02:34

When I say this I speak from direct experience of Asian/Pakistani men and boys in the 90's/2000's in Northern England. They had zero respect for white girls, whatsoever. And I mean zero.

At school, we reported them to the teachers. Nothing we can do, they said, it'll be seen as racist. That's what the teachers said.

Gangs of Pakistani boys, following girls around, verbal/physical abuse, daily occurrence. Then the white lads would get involved, loads of scrapping as you can imagine.

On the outside of the school it was the same - older Asian men in gangs grooming young, disaffected white girls.

Absolutely shameless.

crackofdoom · 02/02/2026 23:25

5MinuteArgument · 02/02/2026 19:10

Yes, agreed. Saying it's just men and their toxic masculinity feels like another part of the cover up.

Casey has reported that religion and ethnicity did play a part in grooming gang behaviour. Also the extent of it is often downplayed. It happened in dozens of towns and cities.

Also with Epstein, the fact that he was rich and powerful played a part.

The specifics matter.

What specific traits do Jimmy Savile, Tim Westwood, Gary Glitter and Ian Hawkins have in common?

NAMIMALT (not all music industry men are like that)

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/02/2026 21:33

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 02/02/2026 20:42

This is tosh.

And so reminiscent of the 1970s onward assertions that "if women were in power the world would be a better place/companies would be run better/etc" based on the outcomes from just a few (the very best) having some power.

And lo, women started to be in power much more, and they proved themselves to be just as venal, incompetent, and mendacious as men.

The post office scandal for instance...

If women were exclusively in power I can guarantee that there would be some perfectly happy to abuse, traffic, and profit from girls.

Lovely as the idea is, women are still people and some people are just sh*ts!!!

I'm willing to bet that average age of marriage, to pick one measure, and women's economic success are a +1 correlation.

No, women aren't the same. And BTW I note that in your fantasy, the victims are still female. Which is interesting and telling.

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 02/02/2026 20:42

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/02/2026 14:46

This is a male violence issue.

There are a significant proportion of men who want to abuse women and girls. All the structures that allow them, whether that's religion (Catholic Church), culture (grooming gangs), money (Epstein), power (Weinstein) or force (basically every army) the point is the same. Make male loyalty to the group, and women's powerlessness to the group, very high. The stronger and more powerful the group, and the weaker women are, the better.

The antidote is women's power. Would there be mass exploitation of women by NGO staff if all women were on the ground? No. Would there be child marriage in the US if women had the power and money? No.

So to answer your question OP, race and culture are distractions, made for us to see it as a pattern it isn't. If only we control Asian men, it wouldn't happen. No, educate, empower and listen to women and girls. Everywhere.

This is tosh.

And so reminiscent of the 1970s onward assertions that "if women were in power the world would be a better place/companies would be run better/etc" based on the outcomes from just a few (the very best) having some power.

And lo, women started to be in power much more, and they proved themselves to be just as venal, incompetent, and mendacious as men.

The post office scandal for instance...

If women were exclusively in power I can guarantee that there would be some perfectly happy to abuse, traffic, and profit from girls.

Lovely as the idea is, women are still people and some people are just sh*ts!!!

5MinuteArgument · 02/02/2026 19:10

GeneralPeter · 02/02/2026 15:08

It’s definitely a male violence problem.

But I don’t see those other things as ‘distractions’ (at least, I don’t think we can take that as our blanket view).

Specific institutions are worse, specific cultures are worse, specific armies are worse, specific setups, laws, policies, etc etc. all matter. The alternative is a counsel of despair that nothing can be changed as it’s all just men and men aren’t going anywhere.

If we can name a specific sex (which obviously we must), then we should be happy to name the specific other things.

Edited

Yes, agreed. Saying it's just men and their toxic masculinity feels like another part of the cover up.

Casey has reported that religion and ethnicity did play a part in grooming gang behaviour. Also the extent of it is often downplayed. It happened in dozens of towns and cities.

Also with Epstein, the fact that he was rich and powerful played a part.

The specifics matter.