To have lost faith in men

Thanks for proving my point - and that of many other women on here - so beautifully.

No, I don't have sons. I'm child free, choice made more than thirty years ago.

I find it so disgusting when women tell their truth about their experiences and it is insinuated (or stated outright) that they can't have a balanced, worthwhile opinion because they are bitter, jealous or damaged by being abused, cheated on, let down by men. The very damage done to them by men becomes the reason they can't be taken seriously about this stuff because their world view has been irreparably damaged.

I say fuck that. Yes, I am bitter about being brought up by a shouty, misogynist father, treated very cruelly and abandoned while pregnant by my 'nice guy' husband who cheated. Iam traumatised by being catcalled, harassed online, groped and raped. And pushed and hit by men. I am jealous of men who don't need to balance work and childcare and who aren't underpaid and have shitter pensions just because of their sex.

This stuff has absolutely given me a negative view of men. They, themselves have taught me never to trust them and that they will cheat, hurt, put themselves first always. Never has a man I have known in any depth convinced me otherwise.

That is my personal evidence and it aligns very, very well with testimony from many other women. And, of course the news and the factual statistics and global history.

Btw, I would include men who pick at women discussing this stuff on the Internet to debate whether their reality even exists as bad eggs. Rotten in fact.

Of course not, it would be the ones who don't.
The 3 out of 4 women who don't suffer domestic abuse would probably agree with me.

For the LOVE OF GOD. How many times, no one is saying it’s ALL MEN. It’s too many men.

👍 Agreed

Again. Never said otherwise.

My point is it isn't all men and there's absolutely nothing that proves otherwise. Yet people continue to lump all men into one category.
Putting men down doesn't raise women up for vice versa.

Many women do cheat but men definitely seem to cheat in higher numbers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233843

Is there a reason why you try to articulate your point by being patronising?

People who disagree with you are neither lack intelligence, understanding or fact.

I am not naive to how absolutely awful some men can be. I never said otherwise.

My point which appears to have fallen on deaf ears of those unable to understand that generalisations are not helpful in any debate.

PS - Many women have watched porn, have taken rejection badly personally or professionally and habe also cheated.

Yes, exactly. And most people underestimate how incredibly influential the lucrative porn industry is, in shaping the sexual scripts of young men so that sexual violence like strangulation is normalised, and in perpetrating the general commodification and objectification of women

Wouldn't that be wonderful?!

Never gonna happen though, because the vast majority of men are entitled and selfish, and when push comes to shove, they don't give a shit about women, or how the cunty behaviour of many men affects them!

Would those be the husbands (or partners) who kill 2 women per week? Or the domestic abuse that happens to 1 in 4 women?

Or the fathers and brothers who are responsible for child sexual abuse, 90% of which happens within the home?

@AwfullyGood

It's ridiculous because it isn't all men and some of the agruments otherwise hold no weight.

I know plenty of good, great, fantastic men. Men, who respect women, treat them well and fairly.

This is almost funny. My sweet summer child.......... You really believe that all these men you know are good, great, and fantastic. You do not know that. You really don't! Most men - even the ones who present as 'one of the good ones' have some degree of misogyny, and entitlement, and laziness, and superiority over women. And they will ALL have catcalled, and whistled at women at some point in their lives.

They will also have tried it on with a woman, and got arsey and snippy when they were turned down - (and even aggressive in some cases.) They have pretty much all watched porn, and all been a bit annoyed when a woman is very successful, and earning more than them. Many of them have cheated on their wives.

These men are not as 'good,' 'great,' and 'fantastic' as you think.

No, they're really not!

This. ^ I honestly couldn't give a fuck that some men have bruised feelings because many women are talking about how they are sick to death of the constant shitty crappy behaviour from men. From the ones who are shit husbands and partners (and shit fathers) who are lazy and entitled, to the ones who sexually harrass, grope, and grab at women - even their own wife, (demanding sex no matter what she may be going through,) along with catcalling and jeering at women, and even being aggressive when women aren't interested.

Men can get to the far side of fuck to be honest. Their 'upset' caused by hurty words from women, is not even 1% of what women have to put up with from men, throughout their whole lives!

I always raise this point in a discussion like this, if men were being killed by women in the numbers women are through male violence there’d be a national outcry, why the F don’t ‘decent’ men, if they’re so decent, take up the charge and become vocal about male violence towards women, does anyone know of any man who actively engages with anything to advocate for women abused my men, because I don’t

I regret that every thread on these topics follows the same pattern. Either an indignant man speaks up to make it clear that he is not the problem, or women respond by listing a number of men, often members of their own families, who are exemplary members of society.

Frankly, this dynamic is exhausting, even for me as a man. While we are busy clarifying who is and is not one of the good ones, the world continues to operate exactly as it always has.

All of this happens without us ever getting to the core issue:

How do we succeed in establishing a new cultural framework that shapes an image of women in the minds of boys and girls which rejects objectification and instead recognizes women as equal and autonomous partners? Whether in relationships, professional life, or the public sphere

Not all men. But always men.

I know that she literally wrote literally but it referred to the Epstein case, and was also preceded by ‘my DH is a good man’ so I didn’t take her literally, literally. In the ‘all men in the whole wide world’ sense.

It’s not my experience, it appears on every thread that mentions VAWG. Literally.

OP literally wrote "literally everyone" though. (Qualified afterwards as "everyone with power" but that could be taken to imply everyone would be the same if only they had power.) You can understand why people might then feel inclined to point out it isn't literally everyone.

In my experience Mumsnet posters (as opposed to posters on many other forums) are actually pretty good at avoiding NAMALT and only come out with it in the face of particularly provocative posts like this one.

I understand. I assume you don't have sons? I understand if you'd rather not give info.

Yes, it does. I don't have many of these left.

Yes, I think some people are reading what you wrote unfairly. I get people wanting to vent but that's no excuse for ignoring what you actually wrote..

Yes. We. Know.

This thread, specifically, is about men.
So you can go and "whatabout" elsewhere.

Agree partially, but these 2 :

watch porn- I don't think watching porn is automatically 'sex pest' behaviour per se. Imo the real issue is how unethical consent etc is - you never know really.

'will try it on with most reasonably attractive women' - 'trying it on' doesn't necessarily equal 'sex pest'. The key is whether rejection is accepted at once without pushing.

I’ve worked in various departments within criminal justice for over 20 years. I’ve met some horrible women, many who have committed horrific crimes. The main problem if I’m going to simplify/generalise it, is men.