To have lost faith in men

Decentering men does not mean being self-centered. It means not making the male gaze and appealing to men the primary driver of everything you do.

Not at all.

The men are just sleeping with the same smaller number of women. Also a lot of the women they are sleeping with may be single.

It’s very easy to have a difference in the numbers.

It’s really not an elite thing. Stories of abuse of women by men permeates all levels of society in all corners.

I know so many women who exited dating (myself included) due to this. We know there are tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of great man put there but the effort to find them is just too exhausting and damaging as all the terrible men also crowd the pool. Easier to remain single.

Spot on, thank you @KoiTetra

Is every single man in the world like this, no of course not. The group that commit the most hideous crimes (sex trafficking, rape etc) is small, however even one is still one too many and that is only the extreme crimes.

The group that is committing less extreme offences (I wont say less serious because that belittles the offence) is far far larger and one of the issues is that a lot of men in this group don't even understand what they are doing is wrong. Most men like to think of themselves as "nice guys" but I suspect at some point in their life have done something to make a woman uncomfortable, threatened, etc. It is probably something that man never even thought twice about but that woman may have thought about it for a long time. This is the issue, we need to have more empathy and understand how actions society trivialises can have a huge impact on someone and absolutely are not acceptable! To me (and very happy to be corrected) one of the scariest issues isn't that these things happen but it is the fact men don't even understand why or how what they do is wrong or what impact it causes. That in my mind is why women have lost faith in men, its one thing for a group to be despicable but when a fairly large group can't even comprehend an issue exists it or even that the issue is acceptable then it makes you wonder if this is something that can ever be changed or if this is actually an inbuilt male psyche.

As men we should focus on how we can change things so that rather than feeling the need to defend ourselves as an individual and "I'm not like them" there is no them to start with.

For clarity I am a male.

On a very simple level, dencetring men essentially means behaving like a man. Even the good men I know, DH included, are fundamentally self-centred. They're the star of the show and for the most part they will prioritise themselves without much guilt or even thought. Women, meanwhile, have it absolutely drummed into them from day one that they must think of others, consider everyone's feelings, keep everyone happy. Even in the happiest, fairest relationships you will almost always see some subtle (or not so subtle) prioritisation of the man. Even simple things like the woman likes a certain food but never makes it because the man said once that he doesn't really like it. The woman creeps about the house when she has to get up early but the man bang and crashes, that sort of thing. Decentring means reclaiming yourself, essentially, not always making yourself small and tucking yourself conveniently away so you don't bother people. Making the food you like and not caring if others aren't delighted. Changing plans that others want because it doesn't suit you. It doesn't mean being a dickhead, it just means not always putting yourself last.

The older women in my life could really do with a dose of decentring. They have tucked themselves away so much they barely exist any more.

Do you think the problem is that women and girls are not socialised enough to excuse terrible male behaviour because they need to #bekind and show they're not sexist and demonstrate their virtue? And that if we don't do it, you are in fact the victim of our terrible, damaging sexism?

Yes. You do.

YABU. It's an elite thing, not a 'man' thing. Ghilsane Maxwell facilitated a lot of it, as well.

The trouble with this kind of analysis is that sex class is not the only class. Given that the OP mentioned Epstein, social class and wealth class also seem quite significant.

This is why intersectional feminism is important.

I don't dispute that men - as a sex class! - have been and continue to be responsible for more horrific acts of violence and exploitation than women as a sex class. But that's just an observation, not analysis. No one seems to be able to decide whether this is due to cultural socialisation or something innate to men, or to what extent. Which is a problem - if you want to address the issue, you have to know what the issue is.

Personally I don't believe the issue is actually about men, per se, but about power structures. Humans in positions of power will exploit and victimise humans they consider beneath them if they don't think there will be consequences. Women very much included - I always think about how many domestic abuse cases involve upper-class, wealthy women abusing their female staff/servants.

I think generally more men are responsible for serious crimes. Just now had to turn over bbc breakfast. A beautiful girl with her whole life ahead of her ,snuffed out by the Suffolk strangler. Of course there are good men of which DH and DS are.many friends too.but I think they are more selfish on day to day as well.on here only yesterday, a lady whose DH let her catch the train whilst recovering from birth injuries. And today a lady whose DH minimising her success at work!Women are supposed to "be there" for theirDH and families, can u imagine how this would be the other way around?

I saw a TikTok video recently about the male dating pool which struck a nerve.
The analogy goes like this - imagine you have a jar and in it are 10 M&Ms (the decent men), and all you have to do is dip into the jar and pick one, but what you didn’t know is that the jar is also full of maggots, needles and acid, so every time you dip into you get bitten, scratched and burnt, but you’re still assured that those M&Ms are in there, that it’s your responsibility to pick it, and to keep going in there to find it. Right now more and more women are choosing not to bother, and men aren’t happy about it, particularly those who think they are the good men.

Women are constantly held accountable for picking the wrong men, often by other women, and the depths of deception that many men go to is dismissed. How many men seem like the right choice until you’re pregnant, or in a position where you are vulnerable, then show their true colours?

Most men I personally know (including father, brothers, cousins, friends, colleagues) are lovely men in their own way, individually, but still show behaviour that once you can see it cannot unsee it. The ones considered genuinely good men, good husbands and fathers, are usually held to a far lower standard than women, and the older I get the more obvious it is. I don’t know one man who is a truly equal partner in a relationship. Even the man who split from his wife and had his children 50:50 met another woman within weeks and moved her in to be Mum.2.

Women carry the load, are the caretakers, the protectors, and more than ever, perhaps because communication has never been easier, they are opting out of being with men, which is very telling, and men don’t like it (poor things).

I haven’t lost faith but this does not surprise me. It seems the norm that when men have power (especially over women) a not insignificant number will use it to sexually coerce and abuse women. And this is almost non existant with women who have power over men.

How does decentring men work if you're married to one, though? Part of marriage is surely that you're important to each other so surely limiting thinking about and interactions with men would be difficult to combine with marriage?

Oh I see, decentring men. I've come across that online before. I'm not convinced that's it's an effective tactics to change things.

I definitely think that women should be very selective about male friends and boot out anyone showing sexist tendencies.

I sadly agree with all this and bar one, have had the nicest, respectful boyfriends too.

Have you been chastised by family and colleagues because you walked home after a night out rather than getting a taxi, because it left you open to risk? Have you had to account for taxi costs in every night out even though its only a ten minute walk because you dont want to be blamed for being reckless?

Do you cross over the road when theres a woman walking behind you in the dark because you're scared of her footsteps? Do you have your car keys in your hand so you can go for the eyes if someone jumps out at you? Have you thought about how you'd kick a guy in the balls and run? Have you been desperate for the loo but walked past a public toilet because it was dimly lit? Have you considered whether you'd go limp during a rape or fight back, because if you don't struggle you might survive, but then the police might take lack of struggle as consent?

Equally I’m never not amazing at how women on here, I don’t anyone like it in real life, simply lump “all men” together and are utterly incapable of seeing it a different way.

Or seem very quick to judge other groups, e.g. the masses of white men protesting about Asian men/asylum seekers/immigrants committing crimes, yet ignoring the fact the problem is... men!

I mean that women should de-centre men ; apart from unavoidable occurrences, interactions with men as well as references about men ought to be kept to a minimum

Well what do you think women should do? Ir's not realistic to expect men to vanish...if you are so pessimistic about the nature of most men then wouldn't the best solution be a female-only island/colony? What do you envisage when you say women should never stop fighting men?

You're so defeatist - never stop the fight because men sure as hell are never going to leave us in peace

It’s usually young women dressed up on nights out, so yes.