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To disagree with the argument from some recent feminists that having a nanny is automatically 'exploiting a poor woman's labour'?

60 replies

Carla786 · 30/01/2026 18:36

I've seen this point from several so-called 'reactionary feminists' recently (major ones are Mary Harrington, Louise Perry, Nina Power- basically former radical feminists who now keep some of their old ideas but argue that women need to return to traditional sexual, childcare etc norms at least to some extent), especially Mary Harrington.
I think it's over-simplistic and unhelpful on several counts. For one, an woman employed as a nanny isn't necessarily a low-income woman forced into it by economic necessity. Some, eg Norland Nannies enter it specifically because they're interested and are often from financially stable backgrounds with other options open. Obviously Norland Nannies aren't the typical nanny but it feels patronising for a supposed 'feminist' to ignore that some women do want to do this job.

There definitely is an issue with women being employed as nannies from poorer countries like the Philippines and exploited- paid unfair wages, sometimes physically abused even. I read Ben Judah's This Is London recently and he had a whole chapter of interviews with Filipina Nannies which was very eye-opening on this.
But I think it's more difficult to blanketly dismiss any poor woman working as an overseas nanny as being exploited by a middle-class woman. If a poor woman has few options where she lives, with little prospect of government improvement (which is the case in some places) and can make money to potentially give her children a better education/life etc by working as a nanny overseas, it's a terrible situation- but is she necessarily being exploited if her employer pays her fairly and treats her well?

Calling difficult choices wrong and unfair is one thing, but exploitation seems a bit strong to apply to all cases, and also in a sense patronising to women. If a poor man made difficult choices to try to improve his family's situation by working overseas, would an employer who treated him fairly be automatically termed exploitative?

I suppose maybe these women like Harrington (who herself says she uses childcare) are trying to make a more structural point that women's work often depends on poorer women needing to work as Nannies due to economic problems, even if the women individually treat their Nannies well generally. I'm still doubtful though as that ignores the large number of Nannies who aren't poor and/or overseas workers.

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JHound · 01/02/2026 02:41

Ignore them. It’s a job. Like any other job.

Carla786 · 01/02/2026 00:57

Incidentally, I came across the debate when I read Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie's new novel Dream Count recently (for those who've not read it, it's good, though I thought not as good as her previous ones. She said she was recovering from the loss of both her parents, which would of course make it harder to write... 😢).
There's a part where the forthright character Omelogor (who seems somewhat similar to Adichie herself) is at a US college class. Domestic help is discussed, and the woke students (a big satire target) argue it's exploitative to employ a maid or nanny. Omelogor retorts that she knows women in Nigeria who've been able to build houses and send their kids to a better school with the money made from that kind of work. Adichie's perspective of Nigeria is arguably quite upper-class-centric, so I was a bit sceptical of this, but at the same time it probably has some degree of accuracy.
It's interesting that Harrington's perspective arguably ends up being, in this case, similar to the one of the woke younger generation she criticises...

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Carla786 · 01/02/2026 00:48

Tigerbalmshark · 31/01/2026 23:54

This particular breed of right-wing “feminist” is all about the “freedom” of being a SAHM and focusing on traditional feminine pursuits such as children and baking and “freeing yourself” from worrying your pretty little head about finances when you have a husband with a Big Job to do all of that for you 🤷‍♀️

And of course none of that applies to them themselves, they “aren’t like other girls” and all have jobs as journalists with the Spectator, and of course their own kids have nannies. It’s other women who need to get back in the kitchen.

Full of shit but getting paid well for saying it, basically.

That sums it up well... with Harrington it gets more ridiculous as she promotes ideas of an 'embodied', outdoorsy, butter-churning, medieval-style lifestyle, while admitting herself she's a member of the 'laptop class' and spends as much time on X as the people she criticises.

I think that may be the root of why her writing has got progressively odder. Too much time on X, in 'heterodox', 'free-thinking' circles where being edgy is more applauded than being grounded in reality. Also X, Substack etc have a lot of American members which makes the culture-war style language more overwrought.

The exploited nanny point, while clearly relevant here to some degree, would fit the US context better.

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Tigerbalmshark · 31/01/2026 23:54

Oopsylazy · 30/01/2026 18:54

It seems a bit of a weird take.

I mean, isn’t feminism all about getting back to work/having a career and not being tied to the home. In which case we need people who are willing to look after children for a living.

And if I was a nanny or nursery worker I wouldn’t take kindly to people thinking I was being exploited!

This particular breed of right-wing “feminist” is all about the “freedom” of being a SAHM and focusing on traditional feminine pursuits such as children and baking and “freeing yourself” from worrying your pretty little head about finances when you have a husband with a Big Job to do all of that for you 🤷‍♀️

And of course none of that applies to them themselves, they “aren’t like other girls” and all have jobs as journalists with the Spectator, and of course their own kids have nannies. It’s other women who need to get back in the kitchen.

Full of shit but getting paid well for saying it, basically.

Carla786 · 31/01/2026 23:44

Arran2024 · 30/01/2026 23:18

The whole nanny market is unregulated, which is interesting, as everything else to do with children is very much regulated. My daughter worked as a nanny for a while after covid and she was definitely exploited - she worked in a nursery but it closed down suddenly and she took a live-out job with a local family. They paid her in cash - both parents had big corporate jobs, but were happy to leave their child with a 21 year old they barely knew, on the basis they knew she had worked for a nursery so presumably was good. My daughter put up with this for a while. Her employer kept telling her to be self employed, but we looked into it, and this wasn't lawful. Eventually the employer relented and started paying her properly through an agency.

There are lots of ways in which she was exploited actually.

The big problem imo is the lack of oversight. The opportunities for exploitation are much higher than with eg nurseries. Staff have next to no comeback if there is a problem.

I'm really sorry that happened to your daughter- horrible. As you say, a nanny working alone is definitely vulnerable to exploitation re pay etc. Both that & nurseries need more regulation.

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Arran2024 · 30/01/2026 23:18

The whole nanny market is unregulated, which is interesting, as everything else to do with children is very much regulated. My daughter worked as a nanny for a while after covid and she was definitely exploited - she worked in a nursery but it closed down suddenly and she took a live-out job with a local family. They paid her in cash - both parents had big corporate jobs, but were happy to leave their child with a 21 year old they barely knew, on the basis they knew she had worked for a nursery so presumably was good. My daughter put up with this for a while. Her employer kept telling her to be self employed, but we looked into it, and this wasn't lawful. Eventually the employer relented and started paying her properly through an agency.

There are lots of ways in which she was exploited actually.

The big problem imo is the lack of oversight. The opportunities for exploitation are much higher than with eg nurseries. Staff have next to no comeback if there is a problem.

Carla786 · 30/01/2026 22:40

NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter · 30/01/2026 22:05

Well indeed.

In the arguments advanced by this school, a family employing someone (often a woman) to take care of their children means The Mother is exploiting a poorer woman, never that The Father is exploiting a poorer woman.

Pits women against each other while the invisible blokes slope off scot free.

Yes, invisible blokes, funny that 🤔

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Carla786 · 30/01/2026 22:39

NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter · 30/01/2026 21:51

"Women’s liberation has, so far, turned out to be mostly for the middle and upper classes: we went from half the human population performing caring roles, regardless of class, to a large proportion of the middle and upper classes outsourcing care to poorer women, migrants and other groups perceived as lower status."

That's genuinely batshit.

She'll get a fecking shock if she learns about actual female servants, either daily ones or those living in their master's house, for the entire of history up till, erm, well about the time of women's liberation.

Childcare and other forms of care were high on the list of tasks the master and mistress outsourced to their servants, that's for sure. That's why there are actual job titles of nanny and nursemaid.

Yes! Great post. Female servants suffered a lot of indignities in the past - sexual harassment & assault for one, which is ignored by Harrington, Perry & others

If you read memoirs as well as history books from Victorian times, for one, it's clear even loving, involved mothers often received substantial help esp during toddler years if they employed domestic servants. And thus is in a context where servants were being employed for prestige reasons, at least insofar as childcare went.

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Carla786 · 30/01/2026 22:32

Oopsylazy · 30/01/2026 21:47

I’m guessing this Mary Harrington has a book she’s currently touting? 😂

I expect there will be something...she brought out her magnum opus Feminism Against Progress 3 years ago, and she has a dramatic new book about how we have already "merged with machines' coming out next year.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.amazon.co.uk/King-Swarm-Politics-after-Singularity/dp/1800756437&ved=2ahUKEwi_qpyzqLSSAxV1dUEAHdl1G7MQFnoECCkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1JuZAzVWytOmt21wDh91zg

https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.uk%2FKing-Swarm-Politics-after-Singularity%2Fdp%2F1800756437&usg=AOvVaw1JuZAzVWytOmt21wDh91zg&ved=2ahUKEwi_qpyzqLSSAxV1dUEAHdl1G7MQFnoECCkQAQ

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NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter · 30/01/2026 22:05

5128gap · 30/01/2026 19:47

Its not very feminist to blame a woman for the fact that a man and a woman are employing a woman to take care of their children. Why is a feminist not criticising the father for not staying home with his children?
While I think its important to acknowledge the role WC women play in facilitating the success of their MC sisters, its certainly not feminism to weaponise the disadvantage of WC women to shame women back to hearth and home.

Well indeed.

In the arguments advanced by this school, a family employing someone (often a woman) to take care of their children means The Mother is exploiting a poorer woman, never that The Father is exploiting a poorer woman.

Pits women against each other while the invisible blokes slope off scot free.

NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter · 30/01/2026 21:55

Carla786 · 30/01/2026 21:24

I personally think Harrington sees history in a rose tinted way. Poorer women were exploited by other women before feminism and working women en masse. Nannies are not a modern invention and probably better treated often than in past. Wet nurses would literally use their body (sometimes after losing their own baby) to feed a child. This is not asked of modern day nannies.

Yes exactly.

Not just rose-tinted, but complete fantasy. She's had to invent her own history from scratch to make her argument.

She erases an enormous class of women from existence.Hmm

NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter · 30/01/2026 21:51

"Women’s liberation has, so far, turned out to be mostly for the middle and upper classes: we went from half the human population performing caring roles, regardless of class, to a large proportion of the middle and upper classes outsourcing care to poorer women, migrants and other groups perceived as lower status."

That's genuinely batshit.

She'll get a fecking shock if she learns about actual female servants, either daily ones or those living in their master's house, for the entire of history up till, erm, well about the time of women's liberation.

Childcare and other forms of care were high on the list of tasks the master and mistress outsourced to their servants, that's for sure. That's why there are actual job titles of nanny and nursemaid.

Westcountrymumof2 · 30/01/2026 21:49

MidnightPatrol · 30/01/2026 21:30

But these arguments aren’t about the ethics of the child’s experience - it’s about the ethics of paying another person to do your domestic work so you are freed up to do other more ‘valuable’ things ie able to pursue a degree of self-actualisation / independence etc not available within traditional gender roles.

Edited

Ah yes ok. I see what you mean.

Oopsylazy · 30/01/2026 21:47

I’m guessing this Mary Harrington has a book she’s currently touting? 😂

crinklechips · 30/01/2026 21:36

Westcountrymumof2 · 30/01/2026 20:06

This is often the case for nursery workers unfortunately. I worked in early years for many years and those employed as a nanny were usually treated very well by their employer. Well paid with extra allowances, good amount of holiday etc. Working in a nursery is often brutal with very long hours, forced over time, low pay, bullying from managers. If feminists want to focus on an area of childcare that is perhaps exploitive to it's workers, I would be taking a look at nurseries not those employing a nanny.

Yes I think nannies are a bit of a red herring, the majority of childcare is not nannies.

My take is it’s a mix of capitalism and patriarchy which means domestic and caring roles are highly under-valued.

Why is it that it has been women fighting to get into the workplace rather than men fighting to bring up the children? Because socially and economically we don’t value “women’s work”.

MidnightPatrol · 30/01/2026 21:30

Westcountrymumof2 · 30/01/2026 21:24

I don't think cleaning windows, fixing cars etc is comparable to the care of a human?

But I certainly agree that it you are going to argue about the ethics of outsourcing the care of children then the spotlight should also be on fathers.

But these arguments aren’t about the ethics of the child’s experience - it’s about the ethics of paying another person to do your domestic work so you are freed up to do other more ‘valuable’ things ie able to pursue a degree of self-actualisation / independence etc not available within traditional gender roles.

Westcountrymumof2 · 30/01/2026 21:24

MidnightPatrol · 30/01/2026 21:20

We are pretty much all forced into work by economic necessity.

No one ever questions men hiring other men to clean the windows, fix their car, whatever else.

Women pay for childcare or a cleaner and it’s some huge betrayal.

Men aren’t worrying themselves about this kind of stuff - either themselves or questioning others.

If anything it reflects on those critiquing the women who use this help - as they obviously see these jobs as being unworthy or undignified in some way.

I don't think cleaning windows, fixing cars etc is comparable to the care of a human?

But I certainly agree that it you are going to argue about the ethics of outsourcing the care of children then the spotlight should also be on fathers.

BlueJuniper94 · 30/01/2026 21:24

Carla786 · 30/01/2026 20:03

Mary Harrington is a bit of a wolf imo. She herself says she uses childcare & she's certainly active in her career, giving lectures abroad & being lauded in 'heterodox' spheres.

I will try & find the articles of hers (and the other writers I mentioned) addressing this. Her big idea is that women are forced to work now two incomes are required & this is exploitative, so I suppose her stance on nannies etc flows from that. Otoh her ideas often seem quite unrealistic. She has an idealised view of pre-Industrial Revolution medieval life where men & women might have run brewing etc businesses at home together. Yes, that was good in some ways, but hardly blissful Happy Families : children had to work too, lives were much harder in general. And while the Industrial Revolution definitely had bad consequences, it wouldn't be desirable OR realistic to go back to medieval-style life.

I'm not sure that's what she's advocating for exactly, but she is trawling through history to try and find ways forward, things are not great as they are, have we taken wrong turns?

Carla786 · 30/01/2026 21:24

I personally think Harrington sees history in a rose tinted way. Poorer women were exploited by other women before feminism and working women en masse. Nannies are not a modern invention and probably better treated often than in past. Wet nurses would literally use their body (sometimes after losing their own baby) to feed a child. This is not asked of modern day nannies.

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MidnightPatrol · 30/01/2026 21:20

We are pretty much all forced into work by economic necessity.

No one ever questions men hiring other men to clean the windows, fix their car, whatever else.

Women pay for childcare or a cleaner and it’s some huge betrayal.

Men aren’t worrying themselves about this kind of stuff - either themselves or questioning others.

If anything it reflects on those critiquing the women who use this help - as they obviously see these jobs as being unworthy or undignified in some way.

Carla786 · 30/01/2026 21:19

beAsensible1 · 30/01/2026 21:17

I think there’s nuance but essentially women are just outsourcing to other women. Nothing is actually changing men are not picking up the slack and taking on their responsibilities in the home.

and most importantly when struggling rather than force the issue with their DHs the solution is to get a woman to do it

I agree with this to some extent, but that doesn't make the outsourcing automatically exploitative of poorer women. It's still an issue though.

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beAsensible1 · 30/01/2026 21:17

I think there’s nuance but essentially women are just outsourcing to other women. Nothing is actually changing men are not picking up the slack and taking on their responsibilities in the home.

and most importantly when struggling rather than force the issue with their DHs the solution is to get a woman to do it

Carla786 · 30/01/2026 21:16

Pentalagon · 30/01/2026 19:37

Otoh I agree feminists should work to improve the lives of poorer women here & abroad, so that situations back home improve & it's not normalised that women must leave their kids to improve their lives by earning more money.

In principle absolutely, but how does this translate meaningfully into everyday life? If you pay a nanny well, provide decent working conditions, you’re indirectly encouraging other women to leave their dc and travel abroad. If you exploit your low paid worker, treat her badly, underpay her, are you actually encouraging her fellow compatriots to decide that living in poverty with their own dc is a better option? Is that supposed to be true feminism?

I think it’s a twisted argument. She’s focusing on the idea of forced separation from dc, ignoring the fact that for the vast majority of working women in the uk, it’s not a free choice when two incomes are necessary to stay above the poverty line. Or to put it another way, that working to keep a roof over your dc’s heads and give them a decent standard of living, is a choice many women make, same as men do. Both the wicked western career gal and the exploited nanny are making the same choice.

To say that women shouldn’t be facilitated to choose to better their dc’s lives by working outside their home, strikes me as profoundly anti feminist.

I don’t think fathers should be actively discouraged from working outside their home either.

The phrase wolf in sheep’s clothing comes to mind, but I haven’t read the original so I’ll reserve judgement.

Here's some articles by her which have this argument.

https://unherd.com/2020/04/carers-deserve-more-than-claps

"Women’s liberation has, so far, turned out to be mostly for the middle and upper classes: we went from half the human population performing caring roles, regardless of class, to a large proportion of the middle and upper classes outsourcing care to poorer women, migrants and other groups perceived as lower status."

https://unherd.com/2020/03/why-arent-women-having-more-babies
"Today, the messy stuff either still gets dumped on women as a ‘second shift’ or outsourced to — you guessed it — poorer women."

https://unherd.com/2021/01/for-clinton-feminists-not-all-women-are-equal
"This minority of women have comprehensively liberated themselves from the constraints of female biology – whether it women’s relative physical weakness or the time constraints imposed by motherhood – and have achieved this at least in part on the backs of poorer women."

https://culturico.com/2021/09/17/how-ancient-greece-prefigured-our-cultural-crisis
"The liberation of women from caring is in effect a kind of Ponzi scheme, where richer women outsource care-related work to poorer women."

Who cares about carers?

Once a week we sing their praises, the rest of the time we underpay and undervalue them

https://unherd.com/2020/04/carers-deserve-more-than-claps/

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Elderlycatparent002 · 30/01/2026 21:14

I do agree though that families/parents are economically required to work too many hours in order to keep the lights. This isn’t good for children (and I say this as a FT working mum). I know my family life would run smoother if DH and I could each drop a day.

Elderlycatparent002 · 30/01/2026 21:11

We have an after school nanny and she earns more per hour than me and is treated with utmost respect. It suits her as her older kids don’t get home until she finishes work but she still has time to support them. I am definitely not exploiting her. Isn’t it just like any other job, it can become exploitative if you treat people poorly?

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