to be fed up of crap fathers being excused from basic parenting?

If a woman sees her husband as a God, then there's no problem is there?

She's not going to be simultaneously moaning about him whilst having more children with him.

They'll have a long and happy marriage if she's happy with her God.

I'm maybe an outlier but it was me that didn't wake up when the baby cried. I had a midwife poke me awake in the maternity hospital as my baby was howling the ward down, waking up all the other mums and babies and I was oblivious.

"so many" isn't "every" though, is it?

There are also lots of women who had no inkling the men in their lives would change when they become parents, either because the men deliberately deceived them or because they didn't realise how much more would be expected of them either.

It's a privilege to have the strength to
a) identify bad behaviour and
b) constantly fight back against it
c) have the option to be able to afford to leave as a last resort.

It's incredibly arrogant to not understand that not everyone has these things. If you grew up in a household where your father did absolutely nothing and hit you regularly then a lazy guy who works full time and occasionally takes the bins out might seem like a god in comparison.

Changing society's expectations of men, obviously, rather than suggesting that if someone grows up with a shit father, they should blame their mother. Leaving won't suddenly make him a good dad, unsurprisingly.

oh, i'm including myself in that.. mine was a lovely example of what the OP is talking about.. and there were a LOT of red flags that i ignored and got to enjoy at his pleasure.

If i'd paid attention to those red flags and not married him, i wouldn't be where i am now 24 years later. divorced with a history of DV and a fuck ton of trauma that keeps NHS therapy busy.

Ok so how would you like them to be a accountable, explain how that works in reality other than women saying they are not putting up with it and leaving

Ahh yes, blame women and their lack of reliable crystal balls, anything to avoid holding shit men accountable.

But, excluding actively abusive parents, if they were fathers they would be seen as present, trying, enjoying their kids but just 'not being good at' X aspect of basic parenting. I've seen 'but he loves his children' so often when applying to an absent father...as if a bad or neglectful mother would be excused for loving her kids...

You can't force them. That's the problem. It's like all the 'oh leave, then he'll have to do 50/50 and you'll have every other weekend free'. No, he won't. He will move to the other end of the country. And he might even change his job so you don't see a penny.

If a man doesn't want to step up, he won't. And even HE might not know he's going to be 'that kind of dad' until the baby arrives.

I have come to the conclusion its a mix of factors.
Socialisation over generations, men and women subconsciously assigning roles based on historical familial roles.
Societal conditions, workplaces not set up for equal roles. Legislation will not remove the fear of harming prospects. Employers offer pay for services, employees offer their time and expertise for cash. If the employee can't provide that because of their choices employers will look at those who can.
Women accept that having children will potentially knock their careers back a notch. Men try to avoid the trap by avoiding being the 'carer'.
Low bar by some women, have a child by one deadbeat, then repeat the same mistake either with him or by successive men.
Women's mental health and life outlook is accepted to change after childbirth. A woman can be a 'bad' mother, it will be immediately suggested as PND, hormones etc. Woman who realises her monumental mistake will generally be sympathised and medicalised. Men are deadbeat or twats. It's not that common for men to have personality transplants the moment their wives/ girlfriends get pregnant, a very few are so mentally disturbed they actively choose to be abusive. Men's mental health is badly supported, men need to get behind the need for better services. Teaching young people, both sexes anger and emotion management is needed. Parenting needs to include not excusing DC poor behaviour because of 'big feelings'
Men also need to make better choices, look at their partners relationships with the men in their lives. If the men are pushed out once kids are around its a red flag too that you too will be excluded.

On both sides, are they independent adults, who are functional and not emotionally/ financially enmeshed with family past adolescence. I've seen that as huge red flags in some relationships on here and RL ( Mil threads, women excluding father and fathers family)
Women will often describe the children as 'their ' child rather than 'our'. See the thread about fathers surnames.
Social Housing is based on children living with 1 primary carer. A financially poor NRP gets no help to provide a 50/50 life.
The vast majority of dads I know live in HMO/ studios as they earn shit retail type wages. Mum works PT but gets UC/housing top ups to stay in rental or HA. Hard but doable. Dad gets his wages only. Not saying the state should provide but thats the reality.

Women do have choices these days and putting up with shit men isn't a given. Women need to be prepared to walk away from 'their' family in the same numbers before major changes will ever happen. Maybe women need to 'step down' to make men 'step up'. We spent years campaigning for choices and changes and its up to us to use those choices. Men who are shit should be left on the shelf. It's not victim blaming to say we have to make better choices. We need to accept responsibility for our own behaviours and choices on both sides.

I guess it all depends on individual circumstances. I totally agree that a lot men don’t pull their weight but I also think couples are not willing to try and talk about what really needs to be done. It’s so boring and hard work but being brutally honest with my partner about what I needed helped me. A lot of women just seeth and moan. Unfortunately I think even the best men aren’t motivated to do much childcare wise unless told. It sucks but then i think men and women are very different.

This thread is so depressing. As usual women who married “the good ones” pat themselves on the back for doing so and look down on those of us who made “bad choices”.

I’m in therapy atm and funnily enough my counsellor has been clear that the relationship my exh has with our kids is his responsibility, and I should focus on my behaviour, not things I can’t change.

"Financial reasons are much less likely to be what keeps a woman in a bad relationship than they were 30 years ago. It’s hugely important not to become financially dependent on a man and thankfully most women realise this."

This isn't as cut and dried as it appears though. In practice, in order for a smooth break-up, this means both partners having the means to house themselves separately in accommodation which can also reasonably, if not necessarily comfortably, accommodate the DC on a part time basis. This requires a substantial amount of savings and the means to secure a mortgage or ability to pay rent independently. Most partnerships sustain their housing needs based on two incomes, even if the female spouse earns her own money, possibly even out-earning her male partner. Few can separate and not be seriously financially disadvantaged. And I don't mean having to make do with fewer holidays and hairdressing appointments, but rather needing to relocate away from DC's schools, friends and family support, upsetting critical routines, ending up in insecure lets in crowded accommodation. So can we stop shaming mothers who balk at the logistics and often serious financial implications of separating from a less than cooperative spouse. Most mothers would move mountains for their DC but in the face of what looks set to be a messy separation with few real 'wins', let's not shit on the women who hesitate. Instead, we highlight the systemic inequalities which underpin these outcomes and support the organisations which make real change.

I think that’s unfair. I thought I’d married a feminist. I thought he was an equal partner.

We did 50/50 care after mat leave. He took kids to groups/clubs etc.

I couldn’t figure out why I was exhausted constantly.

It took a long time to figure out that he wasn’t applying his brain to it. He was doing the practicalities but none of the planning and prep. He wasn’t carrying the mental load.

It also took the kids getting older and more independently minded and their emotional needs being more complex to realise he wasn’t doing any of the emotional labour. I was having to constantly set and re-set the emotional atmosphere after he’d had big child to child type arguments with the DC.

I thought he was genuinely working on these things but he wasn’t.

Filed for divorce recently and it’s SO much calmer and happier at home now. The temper tantrums proved the deal breaker in the end.

To the world outside he was a committed dad and equal partner. Did laundry, cooking, washing up. Took kids to places. All the background work was me. It was subtle and hard to spot.

It’s not obvious immediately sometimes. I think it’s only recently that concepts like the ‘mental load’ and ‘emotional labour’ have come into more general awareness.

Not distrust. Assess. You can decide someone wouldn't make a partner and still trust and be friends with them. It is not about hating men. It is about making a reasoned assessment. I work with men who would be shit parents - they are always in the office - I trust them completely.

Mums do get a choice, they make bad ones and end up in these situations. If you accept a low bar then that’s your own fault. DH is a great parent and has been from day one, of day minus one really when he was advocating for me in the delivery suite.

The system is also bad, maternity wards teach dads from minute one they’re a backup, not really relevant. Paternity leave is often abysmal in terms of finance and longevity (as is most maternity leave financially).

There has been some research conducted regarding men and women's waking patterns to a crying baby.

When DD was a tiny baby she was exclusively breastfed. I used to wake as she started to fidget, before she opened her mouth to cry. I just seemed to be in tune with her.

It is a pubmed article, not something from TikTok.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39819066/

Society is truly at fault for the way we socialise men and boys and the intrinsic message that men’s needs come first. But by blaming women for choosing ‘shit men’ you are suggesting that we should bring up girls to distrust all men and believe that they will turn after the birth of children. This is no way to have a relationship. Women should be able to trust men surely.

It's entirely down to who you choose to marry. Women need to have these conversations before getting married and having kids.

If a man doesn't pull his weight when you live together before marriage they aren't suddenly going to change. Throw then back and find another.

A long time ago, we met a couple we are close to for dinner and he was self-congratulating himself for dealing with an explosive poo nappy for the first time. His wife was rolling her eyes so asked my DH if he’d do it.

My DH replied that he would just deal with anything and certainly it wouldn’t warrant a discussion in a restaurant!

We let men off the hook by assuming roles. I think the PP who said women are embarrassed by their hopeless husbands is right - we are pandering to an image that they’re great dads and should stop it if it’s not actually true.

I agree. There is endemic self delusion on the part of women about this.

More than half of men don’t really want children deep down in my view. Many of them come around to the idea when the kids arrive.

But fundamentally they often feel they are doing us a favour by donating sperm and that after this and providing money, that’s the end of their obligation.

@sprogonthetyne is right. This is wrong -

When you're asleep, you're asleep, and a noise either wakes you or it doesn't. It would be interesting to know whether women generally have more sensitive hearing than men or are lighter sleepers - maybe? But it can't be a choice, for either sex.

I also sleep deeply when I'm off duty and lighter when on duty, in a similar situation, with a disabled child who wakes. I don't even need the children to be out or away- I can be in the same bed as DH and if we have pre-decided he is on for the night, I can have a child literally walk into the room and won't hear them or wake. It's a mix of my subconscious allowing myself, and DH jumping up as quickly as he can when he wakes.

He also knows he is on duty less often than me so has always put things in place to enable him to parent - leaves the kids doors a bit open, sleeps on the side of our bed nearest the door, that sort of thing.

So now its still womens' fault if their men aren't strong enough to be honest about their most basic and crucial feelings on this? Women are supposed to mind read that but men cant be expected to mind read that we'd like them to take part in the parenting? Right.