Son excluded after meeting today. Was meant to be isolation. Feel sick about it

I assume they're trying to get on the 'you should get them checked out' bandwagon of people trying to armchair diagnose.

I have ADHD, so do both my kids (we all also have ASD) and trust me, it was very much noticeable in both of them prior to the age of the OP's kid. It probably was in me too, my school reports are full of comments about my chattering/day dreaming/distractability... but i was 40 before i GOT a diagnosis.

A bit of swearing/loss of temper does not ADHD make.

Sorry what does that have to do with a kid swearing at a teacher?
Also, I would query those statistics. What sample size are they based on? Was the ADHD diagnosed? What timespan are we talking about?

I just did an adhd course. Children with ADHD are around twice as likely to die before the age of 10, largely due to increased risk-taking behaviours and accidents.
Adults with ADHD are up to five times more likely to die by age 46, most commonly as a result of accidents, injuries, suicide, or homicide.
When ADHD is left untreated, life expectancy may be reduced by 11–13 years, an impact greater than that associated with many widely recognised health risks such as obesity, smoking, alcohol use, sleep deprivation, or physical inactivity.

Well that's nonsense. Of course swearing at people who are doing their job to try and help you improve your life is appalling. If that can't be acknowledged and punished and then rectified then there's no hope for him or any other disruptive teen.

You sound like a very caring, supportive parent who is doing everything they can to try and work out what’s upsetting your boy and at the same cooperate with the school. That’s not an easy balance. Ignore all the judgement parent bashing comments here on mumsnet. My advice is to consider screening him for neuro divergence and/or anxiety. Your poor son is having a rough time and something significant is triggering this behaviour. Maybe the school can get him a mentor? Or when he gets overwhelmed can he be given a pass to go to pastoral or somewhere like that? It’s about de-escalation and understanding the root causes. Of course consequences play a part in this but the school needs to work with you through better communication. Having one contact there may help? Someone from SEN or pastoral department?

@FrostedOwl I've read all your posts on the thread, but not the whole thread itself. And just wanted to say, sounds to me like you're doing great, with a pretty normal 14 year old. You're not letting him off the hook, but you're not assuming all the school's decisions are automatically the right ones either - I think that's spot on parenting.

FWFI - me & my siblings skipped school regularly, and I'm sorry to say swore at teachers as well, and we turned out ok. That said. I think it's great you're trying to dig a bit deeper into why - he feels 'stupid' when he's put on the spot and all that. That must be hard for a 14yo boy. There will be a reason somewhere. There definitely was for us.

oh you sweet summer child.
I didn't even grow up in the city, i went to a rural comprehensive, and it was rife, kids used to just either not turn up and play hooky in town or at their mates houses, or bugger off at lunchtime when the gates were open as we were allowed off-site to eat, and not bother coming back.. and that was in the 80's/90's

Just because it didn't happen in your schools doesn't mean it was rare, or 'not common as it is now'

In terms of 'school refusal' it has just been recognised that the avoidance these days sometimes has an emotional/mental health cause, and not just kids trying to avoid school because they CBA to be there/don't like the teachers/lessons.

Well of course, but the rhetoric now is that to acknowledge that he’s swearing/being rude/aggressive is wrong and unhelpful…

Well that will be because we are constantly battling sweeping generalizations, all of which are incredibly dismissive. Just because you may have come across a person or two who you think is using SEND as an excuse, that doesn’t mean the rest of us are doing it. And to be honest, unless you have some special expertise in the area, you may well have totally misjudged the situation anyway.

Ok well he needs to stop swearing at teachers and refusing to leave rooms when asked.

He's being punished and he could get permanently kicked out of he doesn't stop acting this way.

Be supportive of the school disciplinary measures and reward him for consistent good behaviour in school.

Probably the same time “pupils” became known as “learners”

Hearing about things more is not indicative of its increase in occurrence, just in recognition and reporting.

And then what happens? The parents say "yes he's at home but just can't be bothered to come in today?"

You have a very odd idea of what happens in most people's lives.

Make them understand that it's not an option?

Ooh. Do go on, I'm not sure anyone has tried this before. How exactly would you succeed in this?

Drive them there?

I'd love to see you manhandle anyone over the age of 6 or 7 who is refusing to get into the car and 'drive them there'! Best of luck, I'll bring popcorn and an ice pack for your hurt pride when it doesn't happen.

What's the alternative?

What, indeed.

Otherwise, therapy to understand what's going on with them.

Ah, excellent point. Not bad at all. Quite different to physically forcing them into a vehicle.

Your very small sample size of things you personally knew about or experienced is insignificant.

@Yogetter you regularly hear it on the news now so it's not just my very small sample size. Are you trying to claim the rates of school refusal aren't way up compared to a decade or two ago?

That happens now...

And then what happens? The parents say "yes he's at home but just can't be bothered to come in today?"

And what, exactly would you do about it?

Make them understand that it's not an option? Drive them there? What's the alternative? Just let them never go to school if they don't feel like it? I suppose you could always change schools if it's an issue with bullying or something. Otherwise, therapy to understand what's going on with them.

Yeah, in some cases that's probably true, as it is today as well. Lots of things happened 'back then' that wasn't handled very well, long-term. Not a gold standard really.

Getting a regular education kind of is a gold standard compared to today...

I didn't say school shouldn't exclude him. I said mum should take more initiative in working out if there is something behind his behaviour, supported by a range of services.

Ive only read uour replies OP not other posts so apologies if others have suggested this but firstly its fine to approach the school calmly asking if they can tell you when/if things go wrong as soon as they happen so you can work together. Secondly some people need to plan and practice their responses when they feel on the spot or taken aback, or dont know something. Maybe your son is one of them, perhaps you and DH can help him pravtice appropriate responses in school situations?

It just wouldn't have been a thing at any of my schools

Your very small sample size of things you personally knew about or experienced is insignificant.

would be straight onto the parents if we didn't show up for school and no one had informed school we were sick

That happens now...

Kids have realised school is optional and there's nothing their parents are going to do about it.

And what, exactly would you do about it?

Kids had anxiety back then too yet funnily enough still managed to get to school!

Yeah, in some cases that's probably true, as it is today as well. Lots of things happened 'back then' that wasn't handled very well, long-term. Not a gold standard really.

Ok, could by anything. Again, the cause needs to be found.

Sorry you are going through this, I think schools are quick to judge especially around attendance. Perhaps he has unmet needs in school, especially since you’ve spoken to them about anxiety and you say he isn’t like this at home. Maybe his “school refusal” is because he feels physically unable to go into school, despite what he says (they don’t always want us to know what they’re feeling).just because school say he’s coping fine doesn’t mean he is, children mask very well in many cases and sometimes tha gets too much and results in the behaviours you are seeing. It’s difficult, believe me I know, have you asked them for referral to emotional resilience nurse at school? I’m not saying it will help but if he’s struggling with anxiety and a difficulty in getting to school, it might. He needs to trust that there is someone in school who will listen to him and “be on his side”, see past the behaviours displayed and see if there’s something they’re missing

^Yes this. And I don’t know why so many posters are accusing the OP of minimising the misbehaviour of her DS. She really isn’t, she’s backing the school in front of him and making it clear to him that he has only himself to blame. And she’s giving him consequences.

She isn’t one of those parents that we do see on MN minimising their DCs’ behaviour.

You say isolation was mentioned but the he walked out of isolation so really what would the next steps be other than this?
I know it’s hard on you but kids need to learn there are consequences for bad behaviour?
Ideally what would you have wanted them to do?

In this case, the people to be worried about are the teacher and the other 25 or so kids trying to learn in that class.
Even IF this child turns out to have ADHD/ASD or any other need, he still can’t go round swearing at people and causing disruption. And it’s a big IF.
Whereas what we definitely KNOW is that someone was verbally abused for doing her job. She might want to leave teaching or go off sick because why would you want to go to work to be abused? That’s all the kids she teaches, all the colleagues in her team absolutely fucked for the rest of the year.
That’s why the school are 100% right to exclude.

But SEN is not the cause of swearing at a teacher. Misogyny might be. Pride, shame, models of aggression at home or in the peer group.

Yeah but I bet it wasn't anywhere near as common as it is now. It just wouldn't have been a thing at any of my schools-they wouldn't tolerate it and would be straight onto the parents if we didn't show up for school and no one had informed school we were sick. Kids have realised school is optional and there's nothing their parents are going to do about it. Kids had anxiety back then too yet funnily enough still managed to get to school!

Unfortunately some use a SEND diagnosis as an excuse for poor behaviour. It’s endemic.
unfortunately people who agree with me are often attacked by the SEND Stazi.
we are not saying that all SEND is an excuse, but some is.

Your "naughty" could very well be someone else being bullied or having undiagnosed autism. These days we tend to take more of an interest in what's behind behaviour, not just label them "naughty" and put them on the scrap heap.

Lots of children are not a good fit for school but are made to go anyway. Op's son might thrive in alternative provision.