So upset about ICE killings in Minnesota

Laws apply equally and fairly to every citizen.

Officers are certainly not entitled to kill someone on the basis of criminal damage.

Amazingly you can have a criminal record and still be entitled to be treated fairly by a properly operating system.

Otherwise you may as well abandon the courts & justice system altogether and just leave them taking pot shots at will.

There is also something about acting in the best interests of the ‘public good’. So as an agency or an individual with authority you shouldn’t be doing things in the course of your duty that cause worse issues somewhere else. Like doctors have the ‘first do no harm’ principle. They would have a right to arrest people who are obstructing them but there’s always a balanced risk assessment to be made. If they can’t make that risk assessment properly they have no business being in that role. It seems like some republicans are recognising this now.

Ashli Babbitt was shot and killed! She shouldn't have been shot either but again if you agitate in an area with armed officers tragedies may well occur.

Exactly. A violent nasty agitator who had previously assaulted officers.

Again, no he should not have been shot but it is easy to see how the situation escalated.

You are effectively suggesting that all the Jan 6 rioters could have been gunned down for not following police instructions and that would have been nothing more than a 'mistake'.

I think its their role to descalate, arrest & detain where appropriate.

Not force someone to kneel and shot them 10x.

I've just seen this footage as well.
From that and what I've now read about his recent background, it looks like "selfless nurse helping a woman to her feet" isn't exactly an accurate picture here.

It isn't 'funny' it shows this 'ICU nurse' was a violent and unpleasant agitator who attacked people and caused trouble.
Again, no basis to shoot someone but if intentions are unclear mistakes and tragedy will sadly happen.

I've lived and worked in a country where documents were frequently requested by armed officers and not always in a pleasant way. One thing you didn't do was spit at them, blow whistles in their faces and cause criminal damage to their vehicles. None of which means one deserves to be shot however in a potentially volatile situation you stfu and do as you're told.

Google tells me it is possible to be a neoliberal fascist but thats a rabbit hole I don’t want to go down today.

What is a ‘far liberal’? I’m asking because for me there is a lot of confusion about where people are placed on the political spectrum and how defined. They are not homogeneous groups and extremes on the left and right can sometimes have way more in common with each other than they do with more moderate folk of any persuasion.

The right wing of the spectrum also has neoliberals who don’t believe in government intervention, believe that the market should rule and in the US that they be allowed to carry guns etc. This is what has caused Trump problems recently because he appears to switched over to extreme government intervention and prescribing what citizens can and cannot do. This is not left versus right but authoritarian versus liberal.

Funny how this footage is released.

Not the footage from the 2 ICE body cameras.

Not the footage from Pretti’s phone.

You can’t shoot someone for kicking a car.

It certainly not justifiable for holding up a phone or blowing a whistle.

He didn't kick it, he deliberately smashed their tail lights, and spat at them.

Nonsense as in you think it's not true or nonsense as in you think that's valid peaceful protest?

Eta: I've been told several times here that ICE agents are just trigger happy goons as demonstrated by the killing of Renee Goode - you've all been saying that, it seems pretty obvious there's been a serious lack of training. So as I said, I wouldn't behave like that having seen the consequences already. I'm not saying anything about rights and wrongs but there appears to be a surprising lack of self preservation

Spitting in officers faces and smashing their property isn't peaceful. They don't have to do that. Do you condemn or support those actions?

Also, interestingly you make a good case for gun ownership, provision was made for that in the constitution to protect the populace against a tyrannical government.

What nonsense is this?
Kicking a car does not mean you don’t value your life - unless you are suggesting all ICE agents are trigger happy goons.

There's footage of Pretti smashing the tail lights of their vehicles and spitting in their faces, it's not wise to be that aggressive to enforcement officers while armed. People don't have a democratic right to do that. That doesn't mean he deserved to be shot, it means that I'm surprised someone who values their life would do that.

I think the pp is right that this is not about immigration so much as culture war. The administration thought it would be a culture war win to go hard, fast and most importantly very visibly at this. And due to incompetence they don’t foresee or plan for the full consequences of their actions. I wonder if given enough rope they will hang themselves but we can’t predict what terrible damage will be inflicted in course of this.

Your post highlights the polarisation of politics today:

As you say those on the left see it as a battle between the far right and those on the left plus everyone else with the far right destroying the centre right.

Whereas as those on the right see it as a battle between the far left / far liberal and those on the right plus everyone else with the far left destroying the traditional centre left.

That's a good comparison @GaIadriel.

Trump and his administration are both crazy and dangerous. They've cost numerous lives at home in the US as well as abroad.

Well, either way he's in the Whitehouse governing the most powerful nation on the planet. And he got in twice despite liberals literally crying in the street the first time round.

There's a big gulf between meekly complying and following officers around blasting whistles. Nobody is getting shot for standing around with a sign. Approaching these men is like a lone woman approaching the crazy guy ranting outside the train station.

No it's not.

It's a battle between the far right and everyone else. The right wing, right of centre, centrists, left of centre and left wing of society.

Trump is destroying the Right in liberal, Western democracies.

It's that belief thing again.

No facts.
No evidence.
No critical or independent thought.

Trump doesn't need permission to peddle bullshit, and I don't think his plan is working to a great extent given that even Republican support for ICE is dropping, and that his comments re. the Second Amendment have caused unrest among a significant portion of his own base.

But you didn't answer me question. If a government starts illegally infringing on people's constitution rights, and threatens states with the ongoing presence of violent, law-flouting "enforcers" if they dont hand over electoral information, are you saying that the right response is to meekly comply? Is there a point at which you would be prepared to peacefully protest for your rights?

Well, he can now say that Leftist protestors have been perverting the course of justice by turning up and obstructing civil enforcement agents whilst they perform their duties (helping potential criminals evade capture by warning them with whistles).

He can say of the two victims that one was obstructing civil enforcement operations (parking sideways in the middle of the road as if they might block the ICE agents vehicles) and resisting arrest by trying to flee when ordered to stop. And the other victim approaching officers whilst carrying a firearm when said officers were preoccupied dealing with another potential suspect (as if he might be about to 'defend' her).

Doesn't matter if he's twisting it. He only needs enough to work with and he's being given that. Even on here a lot of posters believe Renee hit the officer with her car. His plan is working to an extent.

At what point, if any, do you think peaceful protests of illegal government actions should be undertaken?

Would you be prepared just to sit tight and hope freedoms are reinstated at sone point?