Are all fathers creepy?

What a relief!!! I opened this thread at teatime and had to leave it to make the tea and fume, but I'm delighted to see that the OP has had his arse handed to him. Fucking Creep.

Why on earth do you expect that women should be "disinterested" in a discussion about how male entitlement encrouches upon us?

We are very much interested parties when it comes to how far our boundaries should be allowed to extend against men by default, thank you.

Why don't you ask some older fathers of daughters how they managed?

Oh you sweet summer child.

Like all women, it is the behaviour of men that will lead her, over time, to come to suspect the motives of all men.

If you truly want a better world for your daughter, fix the men.

Actually I’m fine with a “no women in the male changing rooms or toilets” rule as well. No issue at all with that. Equality for both sexes.

And strangely enough I have never met a woman keen to barge into the gents and set up camp, it only ever seems to be men keen to shove their way in where they clearly aren’t wanted.

You want to learn and understand? Ok.

Women are perved on and creeped at by men from our very early teens at least, and for some even earlier.

What makes us uncomfortable is knowing, from our own experiences, just how depressingly boringly everyday it is to encounter men like that. They aren't a rare breed of man, they are very much a common or garden breed of man. Not all men, but certainly enough that women factor them into our day to day decisions and behaviour.

So, I'm sorry, but it's not about you being a great guy and how can you make us understand that, it's about us not wanting to have to waste our mental energy and emotional energy assessing each and every men to avoid pervs while not accidently making nice men feel bad about themselves.

Bascially, if you stop considering that the impact on men's feelings is the most important measure of what is reasonable for women rather than the impact of some men on women, it will make a lot more sense.

Not all men but you can’t really take the risk. It’s like how in the street if you see an urban type with a balaclava on you’re going to put your phone in your pocket but there’s no guarantee they are a phone thief it’s just staying safe and street wise

There should absolutely be suitable changing facilities for your DS where you can assist him, but girls and women are entitled not to have him in their changing rooms. It's not about him being a threat (I'm sure he's not), it's about girls and women being allowed to get changed in a space that is free of boys and men.

my father was not ....he used to have young women on night trains < a very typical way to travel in another country > come and sit near him....he looked strong, moral and fatherly

Only a wrongun has your point of view OP.

This. ^

And the vast majority of 'dads' don't want to be anywhere near their daughters undressing/being half naked in a changing room!

As I said earlier, my DH wouldn't come anywhere near the female changing room(s) when our DD was in there. Not even when she was little.

He didn't feel comfortable at all, and knew that other girls and women would be a bit and a bit if he was sitting/standing 2-4 feet away from them, hidden only by a flimsy curtain.

Oh dear. Not covering yourself in glory there mate - OR winning your feeble argument. You're embarrassing yourself. Know when to quit!

Stop doubling down, admit you're wrong, and apologise to all the women on here you are offending and upsetting and insulting, and you may JUST manage to leave the thread with a tiny shred of self respect.

.

Oh do fuck off with your minimising bullshit.

As women, we deal with these things on a DAILY BASIS.

Men having the odd inappropriate thing happen to them once in a blue moon is not the same.

The same way she would if she was shopping alone FFS.

Thanks @Alex122022 for saying that.

Sometimes my husband looks sideways at me when I talk about this stuff- but most men still don’t see women as people in the way they see men as people, with hopes, dreams, individuality, and concerns. And all it takes to reinforce that impression is a single conversation where I have to speak to a man about the impact his behaviour is having on people around him (let’s say, playing music loudly enough to intrude into neighbours’ homes). I can go round and be smiley and apologetic and terribly terribly sorry, and I get anger or hostility, like “well it’s not that loud, it can’t possibly be heard where you are saying it can, and it’s a Friday, and for fucks sake”. My husband can go round and be absolutely blunt, and gets a “oh sorry mate, I didn’t realise, didn’t mean to upset you, let me turn it down right now”.

So yeah, I tend now to give much less benefit of any doubt. I hope you might start to understand where we’re all coming from. It’s less personal to you and more general to men as a sex, but the change can only come from you. Men don’t get it when we say it.

Probably another case of the 80;20 rule. 80% of fathers/men will be perfectly fine, respectful and not potential perverts. 20% may be. But it's the 20% that we all notice because they stand out, either by doing "dodgy" things, saying "dodgy" things, or just the way the act. The 80% majority will be entirely harmless and won't be acting strangely so won't be noticed.

Yeah, and we've heard them all.
'Oops, sorry, didn't realise my zip was down/this was ladies only/I was only joking/where's your sense of humour/Jeez, you can't say anything these days/fucking bitches.
Recently I was in a pub and went to go to the loo which was down a short corridor and as I got to the door i saw a man just ahead of me about to go into the Ladies.(Bog standard middle aged bloke) and I just said 'this is the Ladies.'
Well, if looks could kill I'd be six feet under now. He actually scowled and muttered something very like the fucking bitch comment above. The door to the gents was facing him and was unmistakeable.
In hindsight I think he was furious at being thwarted, I can't think of any other reasonn for his nasty behaviour. And no,he was not in the least embarassed, just angry. It has given me pause for thought.

@Holdinguphalfthesky they do get it though - they just don’t care. If I went into the gents with DS and stood by the urinals, how many men would happily whip their penis out in front of me and pee? Not many, they’d feel uncomfortable and want me to fuck off out of there so they could pee in peace. They just don’t care that women feel the same in changing rooms, because it inconveniences them.

The problem is, @Alex122022 , that women are tired of explaining to men how they can do better. We have been doing it since about 1971 and some of you have got it, but most of you haven’t, and some of the ones who understand our anger still won’t use their privilege to call out their brethren’s bad behaviour.

If you have to ask ‘why can’t I take my daughter into the women’s toilets?’ you haven’t got it. You need to ask yourself why you would feel the need to do that. Why wouldn’t you take her into the men’s? If you’re questioned because you’re hiding behind trees in the park, ask yourself why it doesn’t look innocuous to bystanders. And if your response is anger- you haven’t got it.

Ask yourself why women (and men too!) prefer the bear. Then apply that to every situation.

Even the innocuous interactions. Even the work meetings. Examine your own behaviour: interrogate your own assumptions about the woman you’re talking to. Ask yourself if you are seeing a woman or a person. Ask yourself, would I say this to or ask this of a man? Ask yourself, am I dismissing what she’s said because of her tone? Am I dismissing what she’s said because acknowledging its validity means I have some difficult questions to answer?

Men are the dominant sex. Society is set up to benefit men, with girls socialised from before birth into ‘being kind’ and boys socialised to do whatever the hell they want without stopping to think about how their behaviour impacts on other people. That’s exactly why on MN we see so many threads about men’s lives not really changing when they become fathers, why women so often end up as secretaries and executive assistants for men, sorting out their diaries, meal plans, presents for their relatives, making their lives easier. We never see the opposite. Even where men step up to the domestic workload, they often still take the position of worker rather than manager, so the mental load still falls to the woman. Why is that? (Who manages the mental load in gay relationships? Or for single men? I’m going to go ahead and make the assumption that men can do it, but they choose not to or choose to let that burden fall onto someone else if they can get away with it.)

I doubt if you will read this. But if you’re pissed off at the responses on here- again, I would say, you haven’t got it. You don’t get to be pissed off and justified when women have thousands of years worth of anger. You’re just fucking fortunate we’re not as violent as men are when we’re angry.

The vote is immaterial..It's the way OP framed the thread. He's a goady troll.

So half of respondents don't think it's excessive to consider that all fathers are creepy.

Gisele Pelicot and Joanne Young may not have thought their husbands were predators until they discovered that their husbands had been drugging and raping them as well as inviting other men to rape them.

Having frequently laughed at the standard of statistics on MN and the understanding of the same, no ignorance surprises me. Saying 'a minority' will be confusing to many, even though you're 100% correct!