Dads using female communal changing room

I don't disagree.

If I as a woman was in that space changing and the man refused to leave when asked then I would expect the police to charge him with voyeurism.

Is that clear enough for you?

As I have said - it was never my intention and if I came across as such, I am really sorry.

I don't want to permit anyone. As I said, I don't think it was the right thing to do - I just don't think it was necessary illegal.

Let's put it to a test: if a mother had called the police and they would come - would they be able to press charges? Would it be likely that the man would be convicted?

But I think this is a rather hypothetical question that doesn't solve anything.

And you dismissed my trauma and minimised it. Which is frankly insulting and disgusting and belittling.

Its not an event. Its just basic swimming lessons.

Thanks - I see that the age group was larger than I assumed initially. My experiences with this kind of event is that the group of children is of a similar age, which might have contributed to my misunderstanding. Pools where I live don't have events with such age ranges.

But it is. Because he’s not allowed into the single sex space without it being a mixed space and all men having to be allowed.

why are you determined to permit this man in where he isn’t allowed?

Perhaps we're talking about two different aspects? Because having read you again, it seems to me we largely agree.

The pool needs to provide such a space, and if they fail to do so, it is illegal - I agree.

If the father does not leave when asked to do so, he violates the pools T&Cs - and if he does it again, it is harassment - I agree.

The only disagreement, as I see it, is, that I don't think him being here at the very first instance is necessarily illegal.

I do believe it is more complicated as there is also the aspect of the child. No-one would argue if this was simply a man - but this is a father supervising the daughter in a room where apparently other girls (presumably of a similar age) are changing.

It’s girls aged up to 11. They shouldn’t be changing in front of a random man.

If his daughter is under 8, he should be taking her into the men’s. He can keep her safe there, rather than violating the privacy of the older girls.

The man isn’t allowed into the women’s single sex space. It is illegal for him to be allowed in that space and not allow all men into that space.

What about this is hard?

"He seems to think he has a right EVEN AFTER EVERYTHING all the women posted on here that he STILL should be allowed in there. Again proving the above point even more firmly."

Seriously? May I recommend that you read what I wrote and tell me where exactly I have said what you claim to have said?

Take the pool to court and take him to court for harassment as I explained.

what about that is complicated?

Your claim that it is obviously illegal - it is illegal for the pool not to provide such a space and enforce it. Whether it is also illegal for the man is a different question - and I don't think it is as clear cut as you think.

How would you establish it was illegal? You would have to bring him to court and prosecute him - for what?

But I don't really think this is needed as any decent person would simply leave once they realise they are in the wrong place - I don't think anyone would argue with that. And if they don't leave - especially once being told so by the pool - it would clearly be illegal.

Pray explain. What is a "MRA type bloke"?

@Alex122022 please can you tell me how it is more complicated than I have set out? And how “no men in women’s single sex spaces” and “no women in men’s single sex spaces” is complicated?

Thank You.

He needs to take his dd into the men’s if under 8 or send her in alone into the ladies

It is against the law for the pool to allow a man into a single sex space.

that means it’s illegal.

the man is also, if he goes in twice, committing an harassment against any one who finds his behaviour to be harassment.

If a father behaved with the degree of entitlement that poster showed it would be the only way he would get the message. It was clear from the initial post that was shitstirring that it was a MRA type bloke. I also stated that.

He seems to think he has a right EVEN AFTER EVERYTHING all the women posted on here that he STILL should be allowed in there. Again proving the above point even more firmly.

We recognise it for being a creep. Correctly.

Women who identify a man who does not respect them and does not recognise their boundaries are within their rights not to be polite and not to mildly challenge.

They are not threatening violence. They are not using pitchforks. They are loudly shouting this man is a creep and doesn't respect the boundaries, privacy and dignity of women because he's a creep who doesn't respect the boundaries, privacy and dignity of women.

If anyone has a problem with that, they personally can get undressed in front of this bloke just like they expect little girls to to demonstrate how on board they are with him, but don't expect anyone else to do the same.

Agreed!

I do believe it is more complicated as there is also the aspect of the child. No-one would argue if this was simply a man - but this is a father supervising the daughter in a room where apparently other girls (presumably of a similar age) are changing.

It appears from what I have read know that some of the girls were older, which changes things.

What I recall was that you stated it was illegal and cited Equality Act and Supreme Court ruling, and I said it was most likely more complicated than that.

But: the Equality Act refers to organisations, not the individual - so it would have been the pool that acted wrongfully.

They should simply be asked to leave.

Theres no need to shout paedo.

if they don’t leave right away, get a member of staff.

make a complaint to the centre/pool.

Someone did suggest shouting 'paedo' repeatedly, and this was approved by several other posters, one saying she didn't care if this caused trauma for the child who the dad was accompanying. So yes, people have been suggesting pitchforks in the first instance!!

There's clearly enough scope for confusion that's it's entirely possible for people to make an innocent mistake. Equally it's possible for someone to get the changing rooms mixed up (I have a couple of times accidentally walked into the gents!). It could be a dad who's taking his child swimming for the first time ever, who genuinely doesn't know the protocol. Yes, they should be told, but to shout 'paedo' at them is pretty offensive and disgusting, especially when it may have been innocent mistake.

It des. Because you’ve said I’m wrong in my interpretation of EQ2010 and the SC ruling in FWS.

You said it was complicated. Or words to that effect - I can’t look back on my phone.

I’ve explained why it’s not.

please do explain to me where I’m wrong.

thanks so much.

Trauma does not make it more complicated.

The law says that everyone is entitled to single sex spaces as a legitimate exemption. Changing spaces where people are getting changed, removing clothes and in a state of undress is one of the historic exemptions.

the equality act permits these exemptions.

in the past, stonewall and others have sought to argue that the single sex exemption in the EQ2010 also included those who had a gender that did not align with their sex.

The Supreme Court was asked to clarify the position and them there judges in the SC who are really just rank amateurs, they decided that when the EQ2010 was written, the ones what writ it meant sex when they said sex and didn’t mean gender.

So that means that where a space is categorised as single sex - for example a women’s changing room - it is single sex, and only women are allowed in.

the inclusion of children under the age of 8 is considered reasonable. Furthermore the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012 require a school to provide single sex changing for children over the age of 8, so it is reasonable to align provision at or about the age of 8.

I am legally entitled to a single sex space - workplace regs in work, 2024 building regs, 1992 regs for eg.

but the FWS Scotland ruling is clear that if a space is designated single sex then it has to be single
sex not gender. Which means, let one individual of the opposite sex in, you have to let them all in and thus the space is no longer single sex but mixed.

I would ask the pool to clarify the policy if there was any ambiguity and I would approach the man and ask him to leave and record it in some way - I wouldn’t photograph in a changing room but I would write it down and make a formal complaint to the pool. I’d tell the man that I deemed his behaviour to be harassment.

if the man was there a second time, I’d do the same but also report to the police. Because you need two instances to make a course of conduct. And that would be the second.

if parents want to campaign that the current set up isn’t meeting their needs and therefore they need something different, that’s up to them but nothing in that makes it ok for a man to break the law. And the pool to aid and abet that. And you can be fecking sure I’d be making a fuss.