to think expectations of grandfathers vs grandmothers are wildly uneven even among women?

My Dad has always done loads for my kids, probably more than my mum who has a very active social life!

I don’t want to be that person but our school has the probably unusual situation of having a large number of grandparents collecting and as many of them are grandads on their own (as in the couple isn’t collecting). Tbh I feel sorry for them all (the men and women)- I can’t imagine running around after a child in 30 years time!!!

There’s a reason the birth rate is falling

My dad and grandfathers were involved in my life since I was born. My male cousin taught me how to roller skate and I have spent more time with him and his family than I did with any of my female cousins’ families including with his in-laws and they are very family-oriented (both MIL and FIL are engaged with their grandchildren). My uncles (parents’ brothers and married in) were always encouraging and supportive and I have great memories with my male cousins that are around my age (Have a massive family).

Some uncles weren’t as involved with their kids but a majority in my family are. Their sons who had involved dads became involved dads themselves.

My sister and I who rarely agree on anything both agree that our dad raised us more than our mother did. I think it took her having her own child to see how much he actually did for us. They butted heads constantly when she was a teen. Our dad was the one taking us to his parents, taking us to museums (mother hated museums) and cultural events, helping us with our homework, dropping us off at school events and me at Girl Scouts, teaching us sports, driving us to dance classes, he also cleaned the house every Sunday (we had our chores too), did the yard work, encouraged us, etc, things parents are supposed to do because that is their duty. That’s what his father did for him and I saw my grandfather take care of his family and his wife, my grandmother. Yes, my dad wasn’t as much around when we were baby and toddlers but he chose to change his hours to make sure he was home before 5pm right before year 3.

My mother was at work most of my childhood, can be a very negative person, doesn’t like being wrong, and thinks if she wouldn’t want to do something, others wouldn’t want to do it either. Being around her was like being around a bully as a child/teen. She is much better now but I still can only tolerate her attitude/demeanour in small doses. She does love her grandchildren and is more hands-on and way less critical as a grandparent than she was as a mother to me.

My dad sees his granddaughter, my niece every month for days and sometimes a week. He has taken her alone on flights, driven halfway to pick her up (my sister lives 10 hours away from my parents), takes care of her while my sister works. My niece is only 20 months old. She calls him paw paw and he talks to her via video chat almost daily.

He doesn’t hesitate to step in because he was raised that way and tbh, he did have five sisters and had caring responsibilities with his disabled brother as a teen so he wasn’t new to taking care of others.

I never expected the level of childcare my parents had with my sister and I from them or my own in-laws. The most I expected was maybe a few times a year since both seem so keen on it. My parents do when they visit once a year. DH handles his parents and if they offer to help in some way I don’t stop them since we only see them a handful of times a year. Plus, since they have given SIL 14 years of childcare 3-5 days a week, and complain about it the 2x a year they visit us for years, I wouldn’t dare ask for anything anyway.

You’re not wrong, both my own dad and my FIL like to see that the kids exist. They have never provided any hands on help at all. So I accept that; because they don’t have a clue what to do with children.

I do think the next generation of men will be better: we haven’t achieved full equality at home generally but the days of men doing absolutely nothing; not even changing nappies, are surely dead and gone,

I also think there is a strong element of society not seeing older women as real people with their own interests, hopes and dreams. A lot of people are all for equality of the sexes, unless the women is older- then her only purpose should be to provide free childcare and free elder care. It seems older people are firmly boxed back into traditional roles.

I know several extremely successful career women who would identify as feminists but treat their own mums like unpaid lackeys who should be grateful that their older years are spent doing unpaid childcare and school runs. The daughters would never dream of putting the same expectations on their dad.

As in they babysat their son's (i.e. my husband's) and my children zero fucking times! Their own daughter's (my SIL) kids, that was a different matter! Bitter, me? 🤷‍♀️

Stereotypes don’t come from nowhere. Probably most grandmothers were more involved as mothers. Several generations ago it was unheard of for grandfathers to play a caring role.

That said, I had to pry my dad off my kids when it was their bedtime. He provided regular childcare for all of his grandchildren. Right up until his late 70s. He’s the only grandfather I know that did.

@UnctuousUnicorns you can count on your WHAT? 😂

Ime it's more an own parents versus husband's parents situation.I can count on my penis the number of times my husband's parents babysat either of our elder two (our third was born after they had both died). OTOH, my dad, who is 84 now, fed them, changed their nappies, bathed them, and did all the caring duties that he'd done with my DB and me, on the occasions that Mum and he babysat our children. He was 17, and the oldest, when Gran's youngest child was born, so he was used to helping out, changing nappies etc.

i know you are probably right about society in general, but my Dad took care of school drop offs and pick ups for years, and looked after DC after school too. I never expected him to, but he offered and I’m incredibly grateful as I wouldn’t have been able to keep my job without him.

My own DF was very much a man of his time (my siblings and I were ‘60’s children), he went to work and never did any housework, cooking or childcare. He was fun on the weekends though and taught us a lot of practical skills. By the time my eldest child was born, my parents had retired. They came over nearly every day to visit and volunteered to childmind when I went back to work. I fully expected most of this to be done by DM, but DF took to it with such alacrity, changing (terry) nappies, feeding and playing with the baby so well that DM took a part time job and left him to it. They had a fantastic bond and saw each other nearly every day for 2 1/2 years until my DF sadly died suddenly. So glad that they had the chance to spend that time together

Ive been asked many times if I should keep working full time - apparently I should be providing childcare for my GD. I am at the top of my earning/paying down the mortgage/paying up pension years. Not a single person expects DH to go part time - that would be ridiculous because he is a man at the top of his earning years.

The bar for men is much lower. Fathers or grandfathers, doesn’t matter.

I don’t expect more from my mum and MIL but they are just more reliable and more interested than my dad and FIL. My dad offers help probably more than my mum but he just doesn’t follow through. I’m more comfortable asking my mum go help because we’re close (she was a single mum and I saw my dad infrequently) and I just know she’ll follow through. I’m more critical of my dad because if you’re not going to help, just don’t offer it.

I’m so grateful that my mum is reliable. I am grateful whether we get help from my mum or my dad and express that gratitude.

Yes, as long as they don't expect their adult kids to provide elder care.

If you’re taking MN as your source of this information…it’s because every single male is a vile, horrible, sexual, financial and emotional abuser that you couldn’t possibly be in a room alone with let alone leave a child with because before you’d know there’s 200 pictures of them on the dark web for sale to the highest bidder.

Or is that just what you perceive? We have no support from grandparents but of the 3 sets of them in our street that help their families - the granddad picks the kids up from school in 2 of those families and the grandmother the other. At the school gates I’d say it’s a fairly even split, as for what goes on while closed doors in all those instances you, me or anyone out side of those families can’t say.

🙄

You can't have it both ways. According to a lot of people on here, all men are paedophiles until proven otherwise. I'm not exaggerating, just check out any thread about male nursery workers. Personally, I don't think that either grandparent should be expected to provide much in the way of care; they've done their stint. The exception to that being if they expect a lot of care when they become old. It's not fair to refuse to help out with grandkids at all, and then expect your kids to spend their late middle age looking after you.

Our shit grandparents are shit, and our brilliant ones are brilliant.
It was the same when I was a child.

Ive never had the experience with my grandfather, father or husband that men are expected to do less, or in practice do less/ do less well.

Hopefully dh's generation will be a lot more capable grandparents when it comes to babies.

Going by the vast number of MNers with partners who only “help”, or do virtually no childcare, and who have exes who have simply disappeared from their DC’s lives, I don’t hold out a lot of hope tbh. A lot of these men probably didn’t particularly want their own children, I can’t see them feeling much differently about grandchildren.

You are not wrong.

My FIL never even changed his own children's nappies. He literally went and found another woman to do it when it had to be done and MIL wasn't there. He also doesn't cook.

My df didn't see the need to bring a 2nd car when we could just hold baby in our arms.

Yeah, we didn’t exactly feel comfortable leaving either of the grandfather's to babysit until the children were a lot older.

Hopefully dh's generation will be a lot more capable grandparents when it comes to babies.

I think the expectations are different simply because it goes unacknowledged that a lot of people don’t have grandfathers around. Perhaps their own dads walked out and they just don’t have a relationship with them. Or in our case, they’re dead. My dad died when I was 18, dh’s when he was 15. So our dc have never had a grandad. When I talk about family support, it’s always about our mums (or more realistically, the lack of it). But not because I think it’s women who should be doing all the supporting. Just our dads have been dead since we were still children.

That said, my grandad played a huge role in my life. He did lots with me as a child, literally all the school runs, was there with my granny doing school holiday childcare, building stuff with me, teaching me how to fix things in the house, taking me on holiday. He was a legend.

I think things are shifting a little but expectations on women are still much higher. My mum and her second husband both cared equally for a grandchild, but he admitted that he wasn't so great first time around with his own children, he made up for it with being a very active grandpa prepared to do proper childcare regularly.

I've prepared my children that I won't be able to do regular childcare though if they have children as it was hard enough first time around and I don't think I can do a second. I would help as much as I can, probably by throwing money at the situation and the odd bit of babysitting.

You are right, older men who even show the slightest bit of interest in their grandchildren are designated as 'brilliant' whereas grandmas who are 'only' doing the odd bit of childcare, way more than the grandpas, are judged much more harshly as could do more.

I hope things will start to change. My dad did offer to help when I was pregnant with my first but he didn’t even realise you could get disposable nappies for newborns 😂. He had never changed a nappy in his life. He literally would not have known what to do with a baby/toddler. It would not have been safe to ask him. My husband is an amazing dad though, and will make a fantastic very hands on grandad.

Yes, I think this is still mostly the case.