to think expectations of grandfathers vs grandmothers are wildly uneven even among women?

I have actually found it fascinating to see my dad become a grandpa. He did not really get a chance to parent me due to his career. I appreciate it was partly choice, but seeing him now with his granddaughter, he is obsessed and so excited to do everything with her. My parents are very much functioning as a team with her, in a way they did not as parents. I think they are genuinely enjoying the “chore” aspects of caring for her so share them well, possibly my dad doing more tbh.

And on the in-laws side, my father-in-law is the default parent and is also the default grandparent.

I voted yabu because I think you're giving these men a free pass by blaming the problem on our (younger women's) "expectations". It's blaming women, again, for men not stepping up.

Fwiw my FIL barely ever changed a nappy when his three kids grew up, and was out all day Saturday watching the football leaving his wife alone with three under 5s (he told me).

Whereas now, when PILs visit and babysit, they are equally hands-on. (They have to be, because my two can be a handful so they man-mark one child each!)

However, he worked full time then and is retired now, and my MIL was very part time, basically SAHM.

Grandads can step up if they want to, they shouldn't wait for "expectations".

There is a gendered division in the way my parents are involved in supporting child care for my DD. And I think it's fairly easy to see how it comes from gender divides from 20/30 years ago.

DM was a housewife when us kids were little, then part time when we were both in school. DF worked full time in manufacturing.

DM retired when my DD was born 10 years ago, partly to look after me and DD and partly because her job was contributing to arthritis. DF is still working now.

DM does a couple of school pick ups a week and DD has tea with grandparents once a week. DM does more of childcare with DD, than DF.

But DF takes every opportunity to spend time with DD too. They work on art projects together. He joins in with friday school pick up because he finishes work early on a Friday. He also will offer to drive us all if both our families are going same location. Will offer to help with any house project.

So yes, on one hand very stereotypical. However, unlike what others are saying here I don't feel like DM is more interested or willing than DF to be involved with grandkids. She is more physically available. DF adores DD. I think once DF finally retires they will do all of the childcare together.

Yes, I think that's a huge factor. I'm in my 40s and my dad did basically no childcare - my mum was a SAHM, he worked long hours.

Whereas now, my partner has always looked after our child fairly equally (notwithstanding mat leave and that I work one day less), and he'd be perfectly capable of looking after a baby/young child.

I think it’s because (generally speaking) all of us that are 35+ find that our dads were already ruined by never being expected to do ‘women’s stuff’ such as childcare.
My sons will do as much as my daughters when they have children and grandchildren and I believe it will be the norm.

My parents (in their late seventies) my mum did kids and dad worked. So when it came to being grandparents same applied. But dhs parents (mid sixties ) both are completely hands on and will have DS solo.

How can you offer care for your parents when you have a full time job and your own children to look after? I did not physically have any time to be a "carer" for my parents. I supported them but there was no way I could have been their carer. This is no different to the people saying they are working into retirement and dont have the time to offer childcare. That goes for elder care too!

You’re not wrong, there are exceptions but generally the expectations are all on women.

Even with the current generation there is thread after thread on here from women asking for advice on applying for flexible, part time working in their current job as the child’s fathers job is too ‘important’ ‘breadwinner’ ‘inflexible’ to consider him contributing to childcare. Then said women becoming angry at their employer if their request isn’t fully granted.

It’s not just expectations it’s inclination. Many men don’t want / aren’t bothered about having children but go along with it for their wives. They’re certainly not going to give up their retirement hobby time to become child-carers!

I’ve known grandparents where this is explicitly the case. The woman volunteers to provide regular days of childcare because she wants to. The man says ‘that’s your choice not mine, I won’t be taking part’ and carries on playing golf etc. Only really works if he has an out of the home hobby to escape to, or a study / attic / den to hide in.

But fine, it’s a classic decent boundary of not accepting ‘being volunteered’ by someone else and refusing to be inconvenienced by them inviting their own guests round. Exactly what women on here are advised to do when their husband makes presumptuous social commitments. Their guest, they do the work, stay out of it.

The same grandfathers can be great at family gatherings, being a grandfather to the extent they deem right.

They just don’t see childcare as anything to do with them. Same goes for plenty of working dads still.

My maternal grandfather never looked after any of his grandchildren - ever. My maternal grandmother did occasionally. However, as my DM was very young g when she had her children, both grandparents were only in their 40s when we were born so still worked full time. My parents didn’t live nearby when our Dc were young.
When we had our children, it was our grandmother, who was then in her 70s, who would help us with the children. Grandma would get 2 busses up to my house every week to do all my ironing and cleaning. She provided practical support but less so with childcare.
Once retired, and living closer, my DF would be the ‘dad taxi’ for his older teen grandchildren and would look after the younger ones in an emergency. When we’d phone him to ask, he’d always start his answer with ‘Bloody hell!’ But he’d be round straight away with sweets, cans of Coke and a plan of what to do for the day. It’s a measure of him as a grandfather to see just how much his grandchildren loved him - nothing to do with how many nappies he changed. I’m glad my DDs remember him with such fondness, he made them very very happy and loved them immensely.

You care and support you parents because they cared for and supported YOU. If you want. Not because they do childcare for your children.

Or all the moaning that the 70yo is only doing ad hoc baby sitting when asked but not offering childcare. This is classed as not helping?! Maybe they’re tired???

we are having babies older and older late 30s and 40s. So they are not going to have the same capacity as your old gps who were 50!!

My dad is as hands on as he has time for. He still works full time whereas my mum doesn’t work (hasn’t since I left primary school). She looks after my DS (and previously DDs 1 and 2) whilst DH and I work. If it’s childcare at the weekend, my dad is equally as involved if my mum is there and has the children on his own if she’s not. He regularly picks up DD1 from clubs to bring her home because he enjoys the time with her.

PIL live further away so FIL babysits as much as MIL as they usually do it together.

I think there was a huge expectation that women were responsible for the children when DH and I were growing up so our dads have had to learn a lot of it with grandchildren (FIL especially). My dad was always a hands on dad in comparison but not as much as my DH is now. Expectations are starting to shift and DH is required to parent just as much as me if for no other reason that we both work full time.

I think you have a point. Whilst I do know plenty of involved grandads, I see plenty doing pick up I've never heard anyone complaining about grandad not helping. Those complaints are always reserved for women.

yep GD is basically a spare part tha does a bit of holding but if GM doesn’t offer weekly childcare she’s a selfish cow. And you’ll leave her to rot and die should she need help in her old age.

then in the same breath women complain about always being the default parent and the mental load while STILL enforcing that burden and expectation on elderly mothers and MILs without a hint of irony.

I agree op.
You see threads berating the mil for not offering help whilst no mention of fil not helping.
I know working women who rely on their mothers to help out. Even when their father isn’t working it’s still their mother who does the grunt work.
It’s strange that these same women know how hard it is and often complain about their own dh not pulling his weight.
Of course you will get posters saying the opposite but in general I think it’s women who bare the brunt.

I think it totally depends on people’s own childhood experiences. My dad was a stay at home dad and my mum worked - so now he does more day to day with my children. As a child, most of my friends parent’s mums were the main caregiver so I can imagine this would continue now they’re grandparents. I think this will change in coming generations as childcare is ideally split more equally.

I agree. Equally, women shouldn't be the ones always responsible for elder care either. They are often already raising their own children and are always expected to be the ones running around after elderly relatives, its never the men who are asked.

I totally agree that that is the norm.

Some posters have much higher expectations of their mothers and mothers in law even than they do of the father of their children let alone the grandfathers!

As it happens, out of the four grandparents my children have (all in good health), my dad is the only one who is both able and willing to care for them at all. He offers to do the occasional day during school holidays.

But I also agree generally that grandparents aren't obliged to do childcare. I would love a night off a couple of times a year but I don't expect it. There's another thread running full of people saying that a MIL who doesn't do chores and babysit doesn't deserve to come round for a cup of tea to see her grandchildren and I just don't get that POV. When did relationships get so transactionally?

I wouldn’t have left either of my in-laws in charge of my kids, and only had my dad left by the time I had kids. I happily left them with him, and he changed nappies and took them to the loo.