Mixed sex changing rooms?

Sorry, didn’t realise that rape is no longer a sex crime.

That’s been what you’ve been doing actually.

I didn’t say vetting is perfect. I think you’re missing my point tbh. The risk from a member of staff who has been interviewed, subject to references, subject to scrutiny in his everyday tasks, as well as vetting, is statistically going to be smaller than from lots of uncontrolled completely random members of the public. Just from a sheer numbers point of view if nothing else.

There is no way of adequately vetting. An enhanced disclosure simply means that the male or female subject to one hasn’t been caught doing anything, not that haven’t done anything.

AnSolas · Today 12:38
Yep. Tis only proper to punish women for ask not to be subjected to a higher risk of non-contact sex crimes and other harms.

This ^ was in reply to why women only single sex spaces are removed for the crime of objecting to males using them.

AnSolas · Today 14:06
If you and any male decide to use a clearly marked mixed sex area you (if you are female) decide to accept any additional risk which attached. You as an adult are free to make that choice.

Yep totally Godwin’s Law to note that a female has a different risk profile than a male in the same mixed sex space.

Should everybody else reading ignore that?

And if that LC keeps the same design the men who want to sex offend against women and children will flock to join.

Why worry about sneeking into the female space and sticking a camera under the gap when he is provided with a multiple of possible victims in the space he can freely entry.

Basic safeguarding all gaps provide a sex offender with an opening to access a victim.

( And if the disabled space is not single user (even with assistant) occupancy the LC is engaged in unlawful sex and indirect disability discrimination. )

@Differentforgirls

l would ask a member of staff who are trained in bra fitting to assist. It’s just not appropriate for a man to be lingering in the underwear changing rooms, where there are just curtains between girls and women getting their boobs out, and a random bloke!!

You quoted me saying “I sometimes take mine in with me, and vice versa” and then blathered about assurances and consent. Irrelevant in the context of mixed sex changing rooms.

I was responding to that.

Is there a Godwin’s Law equivalent to “if you are female” on threads discussing single/mixed sex spaces? There should be. Yes I am.

I think you may be making the mistake of thinking I’m saying that allowing men into the same changing space as women is the same as allowing random members of the public into schools. I’m not. I was dealing very specifically with the point a pp had made, that having men in the same space as women may as well happen because there are already male employees allowed in that space. Employees are different because they can be vetted and risk minimised, whereas members of the public can’t be vetted. My argument is that that particular point made in favour of mixed changing rooms is weak.

except it's not that at all and you know it.

It's as ridiculously naive to imagine a "women only" changing area is any safer than MN forum is a "safe bubble" - unless they are as strict as M&S lingerie sections are (and they are... the staff in at least some of the shops are VERY strict). I was in one just last weekend! Men can stay on the sofa at the front, they are not pushing past the front desk

Most places won't bat an eyelid if a man helps a woman walking to the changing room, walk his daughter, grab some clothes and walk in to bring them to his partner and so on.

Point is, if your hypothetical man wants to put a camera in a changing room, he will easily.

Banning random strangers from a school makes sense. Imaginary threats preventing mixed sex changing room with private cubicles do not.

Out of interest do you think that the 10 year old girl that Katie Dolowski sexuallly assaulted in a single sex toilet in a Morrison's in Scotland imagined her sexual assault?

Or do you think this could have been prevented if ALL men stayed out?

Or is it OK that some girls are sexually assaulted because you don't see the importance of single sex spaces for safety and dignity?

Sorry this doesn’t make any sense to me. The leisure centre I worked in had 3 changing rooms - male, female and disabled. The latter was one big open space, the other two were rooms full of cubicles with a group shower in each. Apparently the male and female is going to be knocked into one. The cubicle doors do not reach the ground. You can sluice or hose water around easily into multiple cubicles at once.

Dont misquote

AnSolas · Today 13:11
It is women who support sex crimes against women.

My daughter (14) was trying on bras in M&S a few months ago. We were in the fitting rooms in the lingerie section. It was curtains and not locked doors in this particular store. I was on the other side of the curtain in case my daughter needed any help, and next thing I know, this woman walked in with a man following her! He walked right into the changing room and was loitering on the other side of the curtain!!!

Why he couldn’t wait outside of the changing rooms I really don’t know. It made me feel very uncomfortable and I did not feel like I could move the curtain to ask my daughter anything, nor could she show me her bra so I could check how it fitted.

My husband and grown up sons would never go into women’s changing rooms, let alone in the underwear section, they would be mortified. This bloke seemed to be doing it on purpose. When we left, I turned and said ‘what the hell do you think you’re doing in here?!’ he didn’t say anything back.

I complained in writing to M&S but they weren’t interested and could not see my point of view at all.

Moving to the personal blame game as a deflection stage.

It’s anti trans rhetoric. Women in the world have far more to worry about than 0.1% of the population and it’s dangerous to suggest otherwise.

Oh dear, I should have realised this would descend into a vitriolic trans debate!

This will sound contradictory and spark a lot of 'what about' but if someone looks, presents and dresses in a female way, I'm happy for them to use (what were once) female only changing areas, if you look and present male, even if you're wearing a dress, even if you are trying on clothes from the women's section, I think you should use the male changing area.

It's traditional 'normal' for want of a better word, men, using women's changing rooms I don't like, or mixed sex/gender ones I don't like, I certainly would have dreaded this as a young girl/woman. I remember as a young teen going in changing rooms with a gaggle of friends, in an out of our cubicles showing each other how we looked, imagine that with a 6ft 50 year old bloke milling about in the common area?! I know the vast majority of men are not predatory sexual assaulters but it would still be weird and uncomfortable.

I am a bit of a prude as my mother used to say, and don't like it when women get totally naked in leisure centre changing areas either, but I rarely frequent them these days. When I was a child the 2 I went to regularly were segregated clearly in to men's and women's. I am early 40's now.

Debate away but try and be kind everyone.

Oh dear, I should have realised this would descend into a vitriolic trans debate!

This will sound contradictory and spark a lot of 'what about' but if someone looks, presents and dresses in a female way, I'm happy for them to use (what were once) female only changing areas, if you look and present male, even if you're wearing a dress, even if you are trying on clothes from the women's section, I think you should use the male changing area.

It's traditional 'normal' for want of a better word, men, using women's changing rooms I don't like, or mixed sex/gender ones I don't like, I certainly would have dreaded this as a young girl/woman. I remember as a young teen going in changing rooms with a gaggle of friends, in an out of our cubicles showing each other how we looked, imagine that with a 6ft 50 year old bloke milling about in the common area?! I know the vast majority of men are not predatory sexual assaulters but it would still be weird and uncomfortable.

I am a bit of a prude as my mother used to say, and don't like it when women get totally naked in leisure centre changing areas either, but I rarely frequent them these days. When I was a child the 2 I went to regularly were segregated clearly in to men's and women's. I am early 40's now.

Debate away but try and be kind everyone.

except it's not that at all and you know it.

It's as ridiculously naive to imagine a "women only" changing area is any safer than MN forum is a "safe bubble" - unless they are as strict as M&S lingerie sections are (and they are... the staff in at least some of the shops are VERY strict). I was in one just last weekend! Men can stay on the sofa at the front, they are not pushing past the front desk

Most places won't bat an eyelid if a man helps a woman walking to the changing room, walk his daughter, grab some clothes and walk in to bring them to his partner and so on.

Point is, if your hypothetical man wants to put a camera in a changing room, he will easily.

Banning random strangers from a school makes sense. Imaginary threats preventing mixed sex changing room with private cubicles do not.

Hence why I used gender.

You are more likely to experience sexual and emotional assault in your own home than you are in a chain store changing room.

You see it all day, every day, on here. I’ve yet to see a thread where a poster has been assaulted by a random trans woman.

It’s usually by partners, parents, step parents, siblings, grandparents, cousins etc and that’s without talking about teachers, social workers, nursing staff, scout leaders, music teachers, bosses, vicars, priests and “pillars of the community” who have suddenly all become “feminists” to deflect it all onto 0.1% of the population.

It’s disgraceful and dangerous as all this anti trans people rhetoric is making everywhere more dangerous for women and abusers are loving it.

The argument about male members of staff is pathetic isn’t it. It’s a bit like saying we allow male members of staff in primary schools to be around little girls and boys, so what difference does it make if we then let random members of the public wander around the school?