West Midlands Police Chief Constable Should beSacked......

He was supposed to report this extreme pressure to our actual community leaders - the government and its official channels. There are many ways to raise concerns about extremism, antisemitism, terrorism etc, all of which he should be very well versed in. If he believed he needed extra resources to stamp out the threat of organised Islamist gangs, he should have requested it - providing all of the evidence he instead saw fit to brush under the carpet when he was capitulating to the violent thugs and terrorists. If they were MPs or in positions of power, it was even more important they be reported and prevented from continuing to spread dangerous influence. But instead I don't believe any action at all has been taken against them, and they are free to continue inciting violence and encouraging others to do so too.

Do you think if an event that was likely to attract a lot of Muslims were being threatened by the Tommy Robinson lot that it would be understandable if the police just gave in to the 'extreme pressure' and banned Muslims? And then didn't even bother to escalate the threats they received from neo-Nazis declaring they were planning to arm themselves and attack, but just ignored them and when questioned said they didn't think they were relevant? And then claimed the reason they were banning Muslims was because they believed Muslims to be violent, and that allowing them to attend would endanger white people? Would you still have sympathy for the police...?

What a great and simple post to hit the nail on the head.

All this “ooh, Maccabi fans are so bad they’re worse than the rest and totally unacceptable” is horseshit. Thuggery, racism. vandalism, drunkenness, you can find them all just as much or more in many teams’ fans, including British teams.

The police manufacturing and distorting evidence about Maccabi fans points to other causes of the ban. But there seem to be at least some posters who persist in this drivel about an Israeli team because it’s, er, Israeli.

It is nothing on the scale of 1970s / 1980s English fans. And is nothing unusual compared to the Turkish supporters, the Italian ultras, Ukraine teams fans.

Be honest here. If the subject of football hooliganism came up at the pub, would you have honestly said "oh never mind AC Milan, Millwall, West Ham, Fenerbache, Galatasaray, Napoli and Shakhtar Donetsk, its those Maccabi Tel Aviv lot you need to look out for!"

Or did everything you know about their hooliganism come to you once the story broke from Owen Jones et al?

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I'd have an issue if they'd banned Borussia Dortmund or Panathanikos Galatasaray or Lazio fans on bogus or false allegations, despite all these clubs having Ultras who have injured, fought or even killed other teams fans and a significant number of racist and fascist fans.

Celtic and Rangers fans are banned from each others grounds because there is accurate and confirmed evidence to support the claim there is a need for it.

In that case, what's your explanation for why Young Boys were allowed in?

Local residents were the ones who threatened violence if the Maccabi fans came to Birmingham

English fans weren’t banned because of fears THEY would be attacked by locals.

They are well known for their behaviour. I get the impression many here have no idea about them football wise but jumping on the bandwagon to protect them because they are Jewish. Any team who has supporters like that should have them banned from attending.

If WMP were less selective about the fans they'd banned, you'd have a point. However part of the problem here is that around the same time they allowed fans of Young Boys in. Who have an appalling reputation, were never going to behave themselves and kicked off accordingly.

To my knowledge, Maccabi fans have not caused something on the scale of Heysel.

Yes I am. English fans were banned for years so why are Maccabi fans different? I don't blame the police etc for banning fans.

I agree. The police oath is "without fear or favour" and that philosophy has long gone. The police should act on a "fact based" methodology, and that shouldn't be influenced by ethnicity, race, etc. It's bad enough that the police give a lot of "freedom" to certain groups such as the Irish travelling community that they wouldn't give to other groups. That kind of thing shouldn't be tolerated and we should have equality for everyone where crimes receive the same attention/punishment regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrators, but sadly, we're decades past when that actually happened.

I can understand you having a degree of sympathy given the pressure. However, those accepting high office (and I'm sure, the remuneration package to match) should see the integrity to apply the law "without fear or favour".

They should not be caving the the euphemistically named community leaders, and if they feel political pressure they should be slapping it down and reporting concerns to the home office. If they haven't the cajones to do that, fair play, I'm not sure I would, but for the love of god don't accept high office. The role of Chief Constable is not for you.

So you'd be in favour of banning other groups known for bad behaviour?

Ban Liverpool or Chelsea supporters from away games?

Ban Roma supporters?

Or do you do what Birmingham should have done and put proper precautions and controls and resources in place to reduce potential problems??

I do agree he needs to go, after all the buck stops with him. But, I also have a little sympathy for him, in the light of extreme pressure from ' community leaders ' and local mps, what was he to do? All of it is wrong. I fear he'll get the sack or resign, and everyone will be happy to sweep it under the rug, but until the bigger issue of mob rule and pandering to the demands of one section of society is addressed, nothing truly will change.

Absolutely.
And being unduly influenced by one section of society is not acceptable.

I think unfortunately he does need to go.
I understand that it was a complex and challenging decision at the time. But that makes it all the more important that the evidence used to make the decision is reliable. Using AI information is unacceptable.

The best quote I've heard on this, which to me sums it up well.

"The forces of the state are doing the bidding of Islamists and extremists who want to destroy our society"

Yes, that's why it's so important for those in authority to do their jobs without fear or favour.

Caving in to a particular group and treating them with kid gloves only builds anger towards that group, which is what's happening with the flags as people see what's going on and get fed up with it.

If not sacked he should be demoted back to being a normal policeman. Something needs to be done about Birmingham with both this and the bin strikes.

@Meadowfinch do these posts suffice? Or are you suffering from the same confirmation bias and the soon to be Chief Constable?

In the Commons on Monday, the Tory MP Nick Timothy said: “On 7 October, the police told a private meeting that they planned to ban Israeli fans from Villa Park. That was, to quote the minutes, ‘in the absence of intelligence.

“On 9 October, they accepted that they needed to find a clearer rationale for the decision already made. On 16 October, they said they had suddenly found significant intelligence for a ban."

Police drew up false evidence after decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans

Whole Times investigation about it, covered very thoroughly on today's The Story | The Times and The Sunday Times.

Here's a taster of the article for you:

"The force only produced “significant” and “new” “intelligence” about Maccabi’s fanbase after a Birmingham council staff member confided that they had faced questions and been “asked to obtain” information to pre-empt criticism or claims of “anti-Jewish sentiment”."

"Chief Constable Craig Guildford stood by the allegations even after police in the Netherlands dismissed them as untrue or misleading."

Also Police chief under pressure to resign over Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban

"Guildford wrote to the committee last month, stating: “We engaged with key community figures such as the chair of Birmingham and West Midlands Jewish Community, Ruth Jacobs.”
He said there was “no documented feedback from Jewish representatives prior to the decision being communicated” in support of the ban but, since then, members of the community had offered their support “in confidence”.
Jacobs has written to Karen Bradley, the committee chairwoman, and Sarah Jones, the policing minister, saying that she was not consulted until after the ban was announced in October and she was unaware of any other Jewish representatives being approached.
Eight Muslim groups, including three who have been accused of hosting antisemitic preachers, were consulted before the ban was imposed on public safety grounds."

So he didn't just take the word of his colleague and then immediately apologise when he discovered the error. He oversaw the deliberate creation of evidence in order to justify a decision he had already taken, due to pressure from Muslim groups. He also lied about having consulted Jewish communities, and lied about the account given by the Amsterdam police. He has also acknowledged that he was aware that there were threats of extreme antisemitic violence made by Muslim groups, which he did not report. Instead, he raised the threat level against Muslims to high, while uncomprehendingly lowering the threat level against Jews and Maccabi fans.

This has been most widely covered by The Times as they led the investigation, but is also on the front page of the BBC, The Guardian etc, which are free to view. The Times podcast I referenced is also free to listen to.

I can't even imagine what news you must be consuming to be under the impression that the only issue is him being mistaken that AI was used?

yes, it is the same with lots of miniorty groups who make a LOT of noise about things. At some point people start to think it is a lot of noise to signal and are exasperated with it.

Indeed it is, so it's vital that we have quality candidates that have the support of their force and the public they serve not to make 'technical mistakes' for which they must be accountable.