To pull DS from his school

You seem to be severely underestimating the seriousness of the behaviour. None of this is low-level.
Low-level is chatting with a classmate during lessons, forgetting your protractor, running ia few meters n a corridor.

Not getting changed for PE - of course it's instant isolation. Defiance is serious

Is there anyone he respects, dad, relative, teacher? You definitely need intervention of some sort and someone he respects and will feel heard by/listen to could really help.

Is it possible that the problem is the other way around and he can’t compete with his ‘golden’ sister so goes the opposite way? I have twins and I saw my daughter abdicate/give up regularly when she was little because her brother was more advanced. They did go to separate secondary schools where she overtook his results big time. Sometimes the school isn’t the right fit, sometimes bad behaviour is a protest to feeling you can’t cope or articulate what is wrong.

Good luck OP

Your son’s behaviour sounds similar to mine, age14. We had no problems in primary, then it was a whole different picture in secondary. He was diagnosed with ADHD in year 7. Three years on and he still really struggles with focusing in class, still occasionally walks out of lessons, can be defiant etc. It’s hard when they’re on the GCSE track, there is a lot of pressure around this and your son will be picking this up. Our school (state, academic, hyper focused on results, not brilliant with SEN) has had to put support frameworks in place for my son but it hasn’t been easy, it’s taken a lot of pushing by me as they just wanted him out. Speak to the school seriously about SEN and what they offer, adjustment wise. It sounds like your son is unhappy and needs support. It’s a tough time for them anyway but the ‘criminalising’ of behaviour and constant sanctions is very unhelpful - there’s a risk he just won’t go at all unless things change for him.

This. There is a group called Not Fine in School on Facebook which is full of people going through similar problems and there is lots of useful advice.

It usually is (20 years teaching and AuDHD DS1). Once our ‘naughtiest’ children go on medication, they are suddenly able to manage their behaviour.

It is thought that up to 90% of the prison estate has ADHD.

School need to be spoken to regarding DD. She should not be getting comments about him at all.

Then address Ds behaviour

What hobbies does he have? Does he do sports? Play music? Draw comics?

Inside and outside of school does he have any friends? Is he thriving socially?

What is his relationship like with you, his dad and his siblings? Do they get on? Do you do things together, laugh together, have family traditions that he enjoys, spend time together in the week/ on weekends, eat meals together?

If it’s true that there’s no SEN, then it sounds like he’s an unhappy child and has lost confidence in himself. So he plays up to the labels adults have given him as at least that gives him the attention he is crying out for.

What strikes me is that even though he is your child and needs urgent help, your focus is your daughter and how his needs affect her. Another thing that jumped out at me is your obvious lack of trust in him. He said he was ill, you didn’t believe him, and he vomited. If he can’t rely on his own mother to trust and advocate for him, who does he go to when he needs someone to listen to him? He sounds awfully lonely and unsupported.

Fix the cause of the unhappiness and the other aspects of his life (such as behaviour at school) will also start to improve slowly but surely.

That sounds really tough, and it’s understandable you feel stuck. Constant punishment without support usually makes behaviour worse, not better, and it’s unfair that it’s affecting your daughter too.

Before moving schools, it’s worth pushing for a proper support plan and a meeting focused on why he’s struggling, not just sanctions. A school move can help, but only if the new school offers real support, otherwise the same issues often follow. Your concerns are valid.

It is all pretty high level behaviour really. He sounds miserable so you do need to get to the bottom of it. Children who behave like this are generally struggling academically or socially or have SEND or mental health issues and sometimes it is a combination of all of those things. He might benefit from having some counselling. I also think you need to investigate the underlying issues.

Before you start thinking about pulling your DS from the school you need to find out what the cause of his behaviour is.

You also need to be clear as to whether you mean withdrawing from roll or just stopping him going to school. As one removes him from the education system.

And you need to do something soon or your DS will be put forward for a managed move.

Walking out of lessons, refusing to do work, arguing back and refusing to engage is not low level behaviour. Are you backing the school up or ranting about how unfair they are to your ds?

Lots of conversations with him, the school, him and the school and you. Spend some time with him one on one regularly to try to get to the root cause of his behaviour. He does need intervention but he also does need to be removed from classes when he’s causing disruption.

Sounds like his behaviour is pretty poor and I don’t see the punishments as being particularly harsh. How is a teacher supposed to manage a class if kids get to decide whether or not they feel like doing something. I would try and work with the school, moving him (even if you can get another school to accept him) will probably just be moving the problem. You seem convinced there is nothing wrong with your parenting but as I am sure you are aware with three kids it’s not one size fits all. Maybe he needs a different approach.

He shouldn’t need incentives to behave, being allowed to participate as a functioning member of society should be enough incentive not to have high level poor behaviour like walking out of class.

The school doesn’t seem to be addressing the behaviour other than by sanctions and it’s not clear what you are or can do about it at home. Taking him out of school for the benefit of your daughter seems reasonable to me as your son is having lots of problems there that aren’t getting better.

You call low level walking out of lessons?

What support would be helpful for your DS? Can you work with the school on this? If not then you could potentially speak to other schools about how they manage behaviour and if they would be a better fit - especially schools that are better able to recognise SEN. But I wouldn’t pull him completely without figuring out where he goes next.

Isolation for that doesn't sound OTT at all. You need to focus on your son's behaviour here, not your daughter. She can just ignore it and roll her eyes.

The school will have lots of thriving, well behaved children, so by your logic, it can’t be the schools fault.

Your son clearly needs a different approach to your other children.

isolation for refusing to engage in a lesson is not too harsh.

There has to be something deeper to cause this consistent unwanted behaviour. The boy is acting out, not acting up. He needs help, not punishment

This. Your dd needs to just roll her eyes and get over it. Having embarrassing parents or an embarrassing sibling is part of life.

You should be focused on your ds. Talk to him. He is old enough to know what he wants. Can he tell you why? Does he want to be away from a super bright hard working sister? It's time to work closely with your ds before he gets any closer to his gcses.

This ⬆️

Surely misbehaviour doesn't have to mean ADHD?

Yes I agree it is awful for your daughter. She can’t relax when there and it’s terribly embarrassing for her. She can’t laugh or be shocked along with the other kids when they’re telling her, due to her loyalty to her brother. She’s being put in a difficult and uncomfortable position.

Have you tried explaining this to your DS? Maybe, if he knew how much his behaviour is affecting his sister, he’ll toe the line?

The low level things are walking out of lessons, refusing to do work, arguing back and just not engaging when he is told to do something.

These are not low level things. Low level things are like chatting when you are meant to be working or calling out answers.

Truancy and defiance are serious and deserve instant isolations.