To pull DS from his school

These aren’t low level, they are seriously disruptive to others’ education. If there is underlying disabilities you need to get him the help he needs but you also in the mean time need to work with the school an adequate discipline and crack it, it’s simply not fair on others including his sister. I’m surprised he hasn’t been suspended yet based on your post. He may need a different kind of school but he definitely needs better discipline and consequences

You need to be clear about what you want to achieve. How much have you worked with the school so far? Exactly what "incentives" do you expect them to put in place?

To take one of your examples
The other day he refused to get changed for PE because it was too cold in the changing rooms, his words, and that was an instant isolation with no discussion.

I doubt very much that DS said "it's too cold in the changing rooms, I'm not getting changed" and the teacher sent him straight to isolation. It's likely that the teacher would have made some comment such as the school heating not coping with the colder weather and he'd talk to the site manager or suggesting that he got changed quickly as he would soon warm up once running about.

What else are you expecting to happen? The teacher can't fix the heating then and there; they can't spend the lesson having a discussion with one child; they can't magic up another warmer changing area. So if your DS won't change, then he can't do the lesson, which means he has to go to another supervised area while everyone else does aka isolation. I ask again - what other conclusion were you expecting? It's also likely that DS was confrontational; so perhaps you could work on him raising issues in a constructive way; he's more likely to get a supportive response.

I'm surprised you are not thinking ADHD. How is he with caffeine?

Whilst I agree constant punishments create a self-fulfilling prophesy, a child should not be rewarded/incentivised for doing what everyone else knuckles down to without incentive. That said, whilst teachers are brilliant I think yhe size and scale of our secondary schools works against creating a good safe supportive environment for a sizeable minority, SEND or not.

i cannot believe your focus is on Dd When it is your alone who is literally crying out for your attention and support.

He is very troubled- have you considered an ADHD screening? therapy? Does he have any hobbies that are positive?

poor kid.

I think you need a meeting at the school with the pastoral team/leader in charge of behaviour with your son present.
You could ask for a managed move to another school, where if that doesn't work he gets the place back at the existing school.
I think you need to look at why he is behaving like this though. You say something things are minor, like not getting changed but actually he is being defiant which is not minor, and there are probably lots of others who were cold who didn't disobey.
What does he think will happen if he continues behaving this way? Is he hoping to be expelled? Has he understood that he has to be in education and that the other options may be equally as undesirable (split timetable across a specialist behaviour school, potentially leaving with no qualifications).
Is he expecting to just be at home doing nothing?

you need to work with the school
arrange a meeting.

Some kids choose isolation, they also show behaviours they know will get them excluded as they want to be at home.

You parent the child -

I also have twins, one dyslexic, they were always compare and he always felt not good enough - she an A* student - teacher compared, or were shocked they were twins.

He has other qualities, he loved school had great friends but was the idiot who wound up teachers, became the class clown - was isolated punished etc

I totally get where you are coming from.

You need to concentrate on him and get to the bottom of the issues. How would he solve the problem?

Why does he want to do?

Some colleges take 14 year olds for classes, they treat the kids like adults, friendlier environment, not pressured by exams etc

There are other choices.

“DD does not have any lessons with him but she constantly hears people telling her Archie has done this or that.”

And that would no doubt still happen if his behaviour was the opposite……they’d say things like ‘Archie is the football team captain, been cast the starring role in the school play’….etc.

People will make comparisons between twins, I know it’s unfair as they each have their own personalities and characters.

As for pulling DS out of that school……is there an alternative close by or were you considering home schooling? His behaviour might be because he’s possibly being told ‘why can’t you be like your twin sister’.

Something is clearly out of balance with your son. It needs getting to the bottom of - conversations with school might help but it maybe worth trying to get some therapy for him. As they say, all behaviour is communication, even the bad behaviour.
It maybe that he needs to move schools in the long term but equally he needs lots of compassion, love and understanding at the moment to get him back on track.

Agree. I think if OP thinks they are “low level” that’s part of the problem.

None of those punishments are harsh, he should be in isolation for extended periods so he can calm down and do work.

Refusing to get changed for PE is the same as refusing to take part in the lesson, it’s INCREDIBLY disruptive.

Yes, there is likely to be something going on underneath it all - low self esteem? Fear of failure?

Take a cue from him complaining kids will laugh at him for being sick. He's feeling ostracised and socially awkward.

He's only been there since September, I assume? Some kids need more help and/or time than others to settle in. Can he talk to someone about how the situation makes him feel?

I was like this in secondary school actually. I was a nightmare.
Reasons that I know now as an adult but never told a soul at the time were a combination of constant bullying from an older year group, unhappiness at home that I couldnt tell anyone about, struggles with body image and hormones, coupled with adhd which was not diagnosed until adulthood.
I would have fared a lot better if allowed to study at home and be home schooled. My mum did moved my secondary school at end of year 8 as she felt they did not offer any pastoral support and I was in trouble every day, one day she had a merting with the head about my behaviour and then I never went back. She actually told me they had asked me to leave at the time. A new school did help but not resolve any issues as I was still in trouble every day.
I am still traumatised by secondary school and had actual nightmares and would wake up in the night dreaming about being in school all the way into adulthood.
I finished school with ok gcses and then i went to college which i flunked for the first year. Then i got my head together and took a levels and got a degree and now have a good career.
School at that age was just not for me. But it disnt mean I was a lost cause or a lifelong drop out. I think if he needs to be out of school then trial it but with strict boundaries and expectations on home learning. Alternatively find another school and fast.

Does your son like isolation? My DS found the secondary school too big and too noisy so being put in isolation was a relief. This only came to light after I removed him.

I got a telephone consultation with the doctor, explained that his behaviour was out of control at school, that it was affecting our home life. I said I believed he was anxious, that I suspected he was ND (finally diagnosed at 20 by the way) but school disagreed. My DS was signed off for 4 weeks.

He calmed down as soon as the threat of school was removed. You could see the change in he demeanour immediately. He still did school work while he was off, but it became apparent he was way, way out of his depth and not understanding most of it.

During his time off we had some good one-to-one conversations as he could see I was trying to help.

He did go back in after his doctors note expired, but I removed him permanently about a month later.

I am not saying you need to remove your DS, but something is driving the behaviour. The behaviour is unacceptable, of course, but you need to get to the bottom of it.

This is such a nuanced and emotionally intelligent respons @FoxyDash, please read it carefully. Something is amiss when you are focussing on your DDs concerns here. It's like tending to a child with a mild sore throat while the other one is suffocating with the flu. Please focus on DS first and tell DD that she is not responsible for her brother's behaviour and to repeat this to anyone who says anything.

I would call Cahms asap. Go private if you can. Your son is screaming out for help loudly and clearly in the way he can- by acting out. Please help him.

'It can't be my parenting - both his sisters are fine'.

I'd relook at this logic with a view to parenting the actual child, not just a facsimile of his sisters. Is there a Dad at home?

What would you do if you pulled him out of that school, OP?

I think I understand why you're focused on what this is doing to DD. She's bothered by what's going on, DS isn't. It doesn't seem like anything you do will change things for DS. But pulling him out could make DD's education much better. I'm not sure it's right, though, to pull a child out of school to benefit their sibling. I think it's something you should do only if it's better for the child you're pulling out. And to come to a conclusion about that, you need a plan for what you'd do once you pull him out.

You say the school just punish and don't provide any support. What support would make a difference? I do think you underplay how bad his behaviour is, to be honest. Refusing to change for PE is seriously disruptive to the class. Teachers can't spend time trying to convince kids they need to get on with the basics that they're perfectly capable of doing without disrupting the education of 29 other kids. It's not low level. What do you expect a teacher to do in those circumstances? Instant isolation might seem a bit strong to you, but it's probably a lot fairer on the other kids in the class.

Have you talked to the school about him, told them you're worried about him and about the impact on your DD? They may have some suggestions about intervention programs (I wouldn't hold out much hope, though. that stuff seems to have died out in the last 30 years).

If you moved school, is there one he'd maybe fit into better? Do you know of any that would be "supportive" rather than draconian with him? Could you find a different way to educate him? Would he do better with a less academic approach? Could you see if there are any alternative institutions he could attend? I would be worried, if you pulled him out, that he'd get even more lost and isolated. I think it's important you find a way to improve things.

The fact that you see these things as low level bad behaviour speak volumes!

Those are not low level! Low level is chatting over the teacher, forgetting stationary, taking a while to settle down etc. your son is very disruptive to his classes and teachers. What are you doing at home in response to this? Removing phones? Computer time? Etc I’m not sure you can say it’s not your parenting because your other children are fine. That’s not how it works.

So you say that you feel stuck and let down by the school and there is no support.
But what are you doing yourself? And his dad?

All teenagers can have mood swings, but to be this disruptive and violent in school isn’t just being an “angry teenager”. It’s obvious this lad is dealing with something mentally, struggles at school and doesn’t know how to express himself.

At the least i would say this is classic PDA?

Many ASD and ADHD kids aren’t picked up and identified until secondary school because they mask well and cope with the ways school is structured in junior school. When hormones, larger class sizes/year groups, more rigid discipline systems and the increasing importance of schoolwork (GCSE) come into play to the ability to cope decreases and behaviour deteriorates.

i would say that there is a reason you see a professional clinical specialist for diagnosis rather than school staff who manage 30-35 children in rolling classroom settings. it sounds as both you and the school are letting him down by refusing to be open to the notion that he is ND - thereby denying him the support, counselling and medication he could access.

And fyi it is not in the schools interests to think he needs diagnosis - they get nothing out of it but additional admin and a higher duty of care. This costs money and additional staff hours. YOU have to insist upon an assessment.

Teenagers are not angry for no reason.
Maybe OP’s unusual focus on DD in this instance is a clue to the dynamics?
Even if the OP doesn’t think she plays favorites maybe DS experiences life differently.

I think that your idea of "low level" is out of kilter with reality. If you are telling him that this level of misbehaviour is not serious then you are setting him up for terrible trouble.

He will likely be excluded soon and sent to a pupil referral unit or special school.

I don't think it would be a good idea to take him out of school unless you have an alterative plan for him.

Once he's out of school, all his friends will still be in school and he will be very socially isolated.

Do you think he is physically capable of behaving, or is there some reason why he cannot control his behaviour?

I had to take my DS out of school because he had severe anxiety. It hasn't been easy or fun, so I wouldn't look at that as the easy route. It's very isolating once there are no teachers or friends any more.