To pull DS from his school

I’ve only read your updates OP but walking out pf
class etc isn’t low level. Low level is forgetting to bring your calculator to class, chatting to the person next to you rather than doing work etc Walking out of class could be a safety risk. Is he literally sitting outside the classroom or doing something extreme like vaping outside? Is he disrupting other classes when he leaves?

How would you handle your son not getting changed while the others wait for the PE class teaching to begin? Are you saying that he would have changed if the teacher had coaxed him into doing it as if he was in reception? It has to be serious or other kids are going to do the same and the teacher loses authority over the class.

The stomach aches - I understand that it’s hard to tell if he’s trying to skive or is getting pain because he doesn’t like school. Have yoh directly asked him if he would like a change in school? How long has his behaviour been going on? Is he struggling academically and hiding this by leaving etc?

I know that the school have said no to ADHD but can you afford a private appointment? School said my son didn’t have ADHD too but he does.

I’d also be looking in his room/pockets for drugs, vapes etc so that I could cross that off the list of potential reasons why he was acting like this.

I understand why your dd is embarrassed but she needs to start thinking of ways to deal with the gossip like eye rolls, a sarcastic reply… Even if her brother moved school, people know he was always in trouble and if he moves to another school then that kind of gossip would travel back thanks to social media etc

Did you bother to read the OP @waterrat ? Before criticising mumsnetters.

The op clearly has no intention of pursuing anything professional because adament he’s no ND.

Take him out of school.

Let the teachers get on with their job and let the other kids get their education without this pain in the neck kid disrupting it.

You say he wasn't like this in primary school - so I would say it is something about this new school he can't cope with. It's not unusual for children with undiagnosed need to find primary, with its smaller classes and intensive suport much easier.
Secondary school is large classes, moving between classes, much less pastoral support and higher expectations. I think you need a meeting with the school to discuss what is going on, and what support can be put in place. (You also need to stop comparing him to his sister).

Oh Op you are dealing with the classic mumsnet response

Behaviour is communication, your son may have undiagnosed SEN

no child 'wants' to be in trouble all the time - he is clearly struggling to cope.

step away from the nasty judgemental comments here and look for proper professional insight into your son.

You are utterly failing him @FoxyDash by being so adamant the is not Nd.

You are not a professional

It doesn’t sound like endless punishment and ‘isolations’ is working and may actually be making the situation worse.
I would look to move him to a more supportive environment both for his sake and so your daughter can focus on herself and her own studies.

"You don't suddenly start acting out at 14" -- I'd agree to a large degree, but also remind you that 14 is prime hormonal territory, that lovely "testosterone surge" in boys and god alone knows what happens in girls.
Have a well adjusted "past her teens now" DD here, and can attest that the otherwise lovely, wise, funny and kind DD sometimes just had a "teen tantrum" or grew an attitude in like milliseconds over stuff. They are teenagers and to a degree slaves to puberty and hormones as well as all the other shit life throws at them.

You haven’t mentioned about a meeting with the school? Moving schools isn’t the answer as the problem will just follow him. You need to sit down with the senco and his head of year.

What is you son’s own explanation for his behaviour? How does he feel about school? Is he constantly being compared to his twin? Until you know more about what is underlying the issues, you can’t be sure whether a school move will work or not.
Have you spoken to school?

He shouldn't need an incentive to behave. At his age he knows actions have consequences. I know it's old fashioned thinking but he needs punishments at home too not you blaming the school.
If you can't control his behaviour why are you expecting them to just put up with it.

To be honest, persistent behaviour like that, I'd crack down on him too as a teacher for not getting changed.
Have there been incentives to behave before?
Do you impose consequences at home for behaviour?
Do you mainly use incentives (i.e. no real consequences)?
Is something making him unhappy? (i.e. have you talked to him about WHY he acts out persistently)
Changing schools probably will make no difference - better to support school and DS to stop the behaviour. It sounds pretty standard for pissed off 14 year olds and is not something that cannot be fixed.

I agree and the same is true with siblings. My dds are very different and it’s great they are in different schools. Dd2 has often been unfavourably compared with dd1 in the past and it’s really unhelpful. It’s better none of her teachers have ever met dd1. So from that point of view moving DS would help them both, but change may negatively affect DS further. So I’d probably ask Dd if she wants to move which probably she will say no to and so you’re stuck with it.

He needs assessing for adhd op. It’s really common in boys that things suddenly get much worse when they hit puberty. The school won’t want him diagnosed as it puts more responsibility onto them.

If this is a fairly recent change in his behaviour then something has happened or is happening to him.

It could be anything, bullying, something online that has upset him. You don't suddenly start acting up for no reason at 14.

You mentioned that he has no lessons with his sister, is this due to them being in different sets? Have they taken their GCSE choices yet?

I mentioned he has no diagnosis because I know that is usually the first question on here. I genuinely do not suspect ASD ADHD etc and neither does school. He has never shown any signs before secondary and was fine in primary.

But you aren’t a specialist are you? You are a psychiatrist.

if you are so sure, why not get him assessed anyway?

If he isn’t listening to teachers, then he might just be naughty due to poor parenting. Most schools I’ve worked at have been great at identifying signs of autism and adhd. If you pull him out, what are you going to do with him? Is he going to play computer games all day?

As someone who works in a secondary school. Kids who behave like this are a nightmare to teach and for other pupils in class. Unfortunately the OP is minimising his behaviour as low level which suggests to me she isnt addressing it.

Why does he have no diagnosis? Has he not been assessed?

You seem totally focused on the wrong things. It’s not the school’s fault (primarily) and not really your daughter’s problem.

You also say it’s not your parenting and it’s not neurodiversity but seem to lack any curiosity of what it might be, blaming the school so you don’t have to tackle the harder problems. You definitely need to find out what is going on with your son, and the behaviour which you are totally minimising, rather than transfer the problem elsewhere.

Good luck (from a parent of 2 ND kids)

None of what you describe as low level behaviour, is low level. What consequences does he get at home when you find out how disruptive he has been at school?

They’re not low level behaviours and sound to be pretty constant. When exactly did they start? What is he like at home?
in regards to your dd, practice with her a terpene that she can use consistently when people approach her- rolling her eyes and saying ‘I don’t really want to know thanks’ then change convo.

To be honest right now your son's high level. really bad behaviour that could well see another child seriously hurt and him expelled, is what you need to be working on right now. Yes moving your son's school would help your daughter, but right now your daughter's needs are not a priory, sorting out why your son is behaving like he his and stopping him before he does something with inversible and hideous consequences like throwing something, hitting a classmate's head and blinding or brain damaging them is.

Agree

Your son is being a little shit. Why are you making this all the schools responsibility? He is there a fraction of his life. Speak to him and start parenting him.

He sounds a real pain in the arse. These are not low level things. He must really disrupt the class. I feel sorry for the teachers these days - especially when parents are so blinkered.