Would you separate in these circumstances

A poster recommended a book on a previous thread. It's called Fair Play. The booked is based on the mental load of women. Because it isn't just the doing, is it? It's the thinking about, organising and carrying out everything it takes to run a home and family.

Do you ever run out of loo roll and toothpaste OP? Of course you don't, because you think about it, write in a the shopping list, go to the supermarket to buy it, and then pop it in the bathroom. (Roughly how it goes. Even if you delegate the shopping trip to another family member, you've put in all the brainwork).

It's worth a read. The intention of the book is to share the home-work load with your partner, with tools to help you get some time back and not hold so much of the responsibility.

Personally I'd be hesitant to advise you to leave purely because you say you do love him and you feel that he loves you. So that makes me think maybe there is room to work at this.

I would sit down with him and say very clearly that you keep having the same argument and that essentially it boils down to an uneven split in 'the load'. I would detail exactly what the load is- make a list of everything from admin to bills to appointments, to childcare to cleaning and DIY etc - everything. Then I think you need to split out together what is who's responsibility and negotiate it fairly so that you are balanced out with working hours and down time as much as you can be. The things on his responsibility list are now his to be fully responsible for and you are washing your hands of those things. You only do what's on your list. But that also means if things aren't done quite to your standard you have to let it go if you're criticising him then it's too easy for it to turn into weaponised incompetence and fall back to you doing it to do it 'right'.

If he's not happy doing DIY then it needs to be outsourced. I personally wouldn't feel confident doing certain DIY things so I can't blame him for that but then he needs to arrange for someone else to do it or it needs to be on your list and he steps up elsewhere.

I think you should go for couples counselling and make it a priority. If you're using terms like "you do nothing" that's really unhealthy arguing and probably sets him on the defensive rather than recognising that your point is valid. So even to learn how to communicate these things to each other and really listen might help. I think you prioritise finding a babysitter to free you up to do that, or you do it online at home when the kids are in bed and use the babysitting time to go on a date every now and then. Set the dates in the calendar and allocate one each to plan.

Do your kids do chores? They are all old enough to help around the house with age appropriate tasks so that can also lighten what you're carrying. How often do you get out yourself? Can you take up a hobby or do something for you once a week and have him do the same so you've planned down time to refill your cup.

I think I would do this, set myself a mental 6 months-1 year and if in that time nothing has improved or if it did and then went back to how it was then I'd walk. But you need to go all in for the time you commit to this. Ultimately op you can't single handedly sustain a relationship- he has to meet you halfway on this or its a sinking ship.

That sounds like a horrible punishment for her poor daughters, setting them up for neglect and living in filth. I doubt any loving mother could leave their children with a lazy wanker and be comfortable with that.

Don't divorce him straight away. Move out and leave him to run the house and family for a month so he sees what's involved.

He can pay for all of it. She is already carrying her weight and his, so he can splash the cash since he's happy to see her ground into the dirt under the weight of his laziness.

So many men are like this, it drives me insane. Primarily it's about respect imo. He hasn't respected you enough to listen and change in 20 years, he's taken you for granted and it seems unlikely that it will change any time soon. Sorry OP.
Only you can decide if you can live with it for another 40.....!

You’ve said you still love him, so my advise is to outsource what you can.

Get a cleaner in once a week and extras for spring cleaning . Someone else to mow lawns (if any), and an ironing lady.

any online order companies for pre- made meals? Stock the freezer.

Tell DH he will be expected to cough up for 50% of the cost and you have reached the end of the road waiting for help.

RTFT and based on your latest responses I think I was projecting a little. If most of this is down to housework and you still love him then I’m sure you can raise the possibility of separation again and go down the path of organising your home life so he takes on more responsibility. Sadly I reached breaking point and when my partner begged and offered to change it was too little too late.

Listing all DIY and paying for someone to promptly attend to it and cleaning every week is sensible.
Ask DH to pay them in cash. He then sees and handles the notes and how much money he could save for the family if he had time to do some extra things.

I doubt he will change OP, another man who cant cope with not being the one who earns the most and has to punish his partner by leaving all the domestic work to her.
Do you want to lay it on the line & give him one last chance?
Or get everything arranged behind the scenes, make it good & watertight so that he has no ability to further punish you.

Oh, and nagging is an abusive term generally used by lazy twat men. It just means having to repeat yourself over and over and over or be an absolute doormat and total slave and continue to be ignored forever.

I couldn't live like this - well, I did for many years and it ended in divorce.

It's deliberate lazy shittiness 100% He is well aware of how unhappy you are and that's the price he's happy to pay for being a lazy bastard around the house and with all the family/parenting/life admin stuff. A bit of a whine and your sadness and exhaustion are a small price to pay for him sitting on the toilet for an hour whenever there's a job to be done, or having to be asked twenty times every single time

I wish more women would refuse to have kids with men like this - I did it too and it absolutely traps you. Looking back, he was always a lazy prick, but the problem was that it was not overwhelming until after I had kids with him.

And it's the frog boiling in water, of course.

In the end, for me, it was knowing he didn't care how miserable his choices were making me that ended my love for him. There was other stuff going on too, but that daily day in day out grind of a selfish twat who could do much better but doesn't want to and is happy to watch you grind yourself into the dirt trying to carry his load too - it just killed my love for him.

And of course they KNOW what they are doing. Otherwise they have brain damage and need to see a neurologist. They always manage to function perfectly well and understand concepts in any area of their life where it suits them.

At minimum, you should be making him pay for a cleaner/nanny/gardener whatever it is you need. Since he won't do his fair share, he can pay someone else to.

For two months, two years ago your DH pulled his weight.
Sit down without any children and with time to spare.
List the things he did well then and make a chart together of the way things could be as good now.
Divide the chores and display the list.

Devise and agree on a way where DH can be reminded without any nagging. Can he set up beeps in his phone calendar? Some modern way where you are not Bad Cop.

Each Sunday have a family meeting to discuss things on the family front - around the table with all of you.
No blaming but a time to express concerns, notify of changes and up coming events etc..
The kids are old enough now to take on some of their own chores and offer solutions to family problems.

Think afresh, start afresh. When old niggles start up again, reprogram ASAP.
You have a right to make your home appropriate and happy for yourself.

You don’t owe him life-long commitment because you have children together. My youngest is 2 and I genuinely thought things might change after he was born. We had gone through a lot of fertility testing and treatment between our kids and I guess it was easy to think that was one possible reason for our difficulties. But once your family is “complete” (actually hate that phrase but hard to find another) it often shines a beaming light on what will never change.

Could I suggest that the fact you've even gone to this level of detail in your head means that you know divorce is the right thing to do. You just feel bad about kicking the man-child out and making him live independently like a real man?

He will move out if push comes to shove, even if it means you, his parents and siblings (if he has any) and friends putting his stuff in a few carrier bags and driving him to his new bedsit.

You know he will still be an amazing dad to the kids, only every other weekend rather than every day.

You will of course still be doing all the DIY and taking the Christmas tree down, but at least everyone will know it's you doing it and not assume that it's him. And you will only be cleaning up the mess that you make.

I think your mind is already made up and you need to do it and be strong.

I bet though the counsellor will see right through it. They've seen it all before. Maybe keep a diary so he has nowhere to hide.

This. I checked out almost two years ago and we’ve just separated after 20 years together. I remember him saying “but I’m not a bad guy, it’s not like I physically or sexually abuse you…” and, well, that was the bar OP. So freaking low. Every day I was asking myself “is this it?” The sheer lack of care was astounding. Emotional and financial abuse was certainly there and he was so thoughtless at times. I feel free. But he still thinks I’ve thrown away something that could have been wonderful. We never would have reached that place though…

Oh, and don't entertain any suggestions from kids that they be paid for chores. Participating in chores is integral part of sharing a home. Your girls will bring that belief to future living situations as opposed to killing themselves trying to do everything themselves.

Out of interest, does he accept that the jobs need doing (eg things like laundry, dishwasher) or does he think they're something you choose to do that aren't strictly necessary? (Hoovering every day, having shiny taps etc, sees insurance and holidays as optional)?

I would be permanently seething to have all the shit jobs left to me but I'd be interested to know his "reasoning".

Reddit users recommendations include apps like Tody and Sweepy, and another by a person who developed their own and is apparently free called MyChoreBoard. I need to get this set up myself. Your kids should all be helping, the 11 and 8 year old are capable of having a serious impact with regard to many chores. It's just a matter of making them a habit. Colour-coded laundry baskets which can be flattened for each child. They sort and put away own clothes. I sometimes think that modern parenting, which is already so difficult to juggle with work, is made so much worse as we now expect nothing of kids who 50 years ago were capable of running a household in the next village! My Mother talks about the 12 year old neighbour who landed in her house every time her Mother had a baby. She knew how to run the whole show! If they don't have devices, get something set up on fridge. I used to share a house with 6 adults abroad. It ran like clockwork with a very simple system. We had a laminated picture of a chore and our laminated names. On entering kitchen, I saw picture of recycling and my name under it. Everyone knew I was on recycling bins that week. Following week, my name moved under picture of hoover etc.

I totally understand how you feel. I was in a similar situation (well still am actually) but please think very carefully before you split.
3 years ago I became physically unwell. I barely left my bed for a year. This then affected my mental health. I became anxious, paranoid and agoraphobic. I then barely left home for a year. As a consequence we lost our home and business. My kind but lazy thoughtless DP stepped up to the mark. He supported our family single handed. He took more abuse than anyone deserved. He continued to be kind and patient and always there. He may have some failings but his good traits are 10 fold. If your DPs failings outweigh the good then yes absolutely go it alone but just weigh up and plus and minus list first.

I was toying with the idea of starting a thread about posters on here accepting substandard partners and how depressing I find it. With phrases such as i know how you feel OP because my DH massively lacks empathy too or i know how you feel OP because my DH doesn't lift a finger to help me.

I understand that if you love someone, are tied to them through children/finances it must be hard to just walk away, so I didn't bother . But it rankles. Yanbu.

Also flabbergasted you’ve had 4 kids while being the breadwinner and doing all the work!!

You both work full time yet you do 90% of jobs??? Unfortunately there is always one better parent; he knows if he doesn’t pay a bill, you will, he doesn’t clear up, you will, because you don’t want your children to suffer. I don’t really see a way out…..other than to leave him.

If this is the main problem and he isn’t going to change after 20 years, couldn’t you hire a cleaner/housekeeper for a few hours a week? Cut your hours back a bit? (All if you can afford it).

Not saying you should need to do any of this but it might take some of the strain off you. It’s a less drastic solution than separation.

if you have four kids, I suspect you’ll both be doing a lot more than most people
on here. Will give you a break, which is half the battle.

I agree with this.

If it works, the great, you’re training him to know what needs doing and eventually he’ll be doing it without you asking.