Men still have the control, how is this ok?

If he only sees the kids at weekends, or every other weekend, yes he is.

Some of the older guys and those the same age as me (middle aged) I work with are lovely guys but still very traditional. Whereas the younger guys I work with are amazing, clued up and care about fairness. I am hoping things will be different for the next generation of women having kids 🤞

I think there seems to be some strange idea that we're talking one man, one woman, one child. That often isn't the case. Its not some desperate woman having a child and hang the consequences. Quite often it's men actively walking away from a relationship or marriage where the children were agreed on.

I think if you have kids as a women you should secretly plan and accept that at some point your going to be on your own raising them on your own and plan your life accordingly

That’s ignoring the fact that the lovely gentlemen paying the maintenance is receiving thousands from you in unpaid childcare

What a strange thing to say. No he isn't.

My father in law is now in his sixties, still working and has regular payments deducted from his wages for child maintenance arrears which are paid to my mother in law of a similar age from when he left her working two jobs and bringing up four dc alone. The irony is that she doesn’t need the money now and his dc now have much loved dc of their own who they would never dream of treating in this way. I hope it shames him all these years later.

I think this is a big part of it. If more women left marriages and left the children with Dad it would start to change but that won't happen. Many women on here don't even want Dad to do shared parental leave.

I have long thought that grown-up children should be able to sue absent parents for unpaid maintenance.

The responsibility to pay is clear and the value of the loss could be demonstrated easily enough by using CMS rates as a benchmark.

The principles of child support need a huge overhaul, but even some of our own politicians have not covered themselves in glory in terms of taking responsibility for and being a father to their children…

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/21/boris-johnson-fathered-child-affair

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44044168

When family breakdown situations occur in daily life I have noticed that people are very quick to make excuses: ‘Oh we don’t know what happened…he must have his reasons…perhaps she was doing the same thing…’

A little bit more judgement would not go amiss. In the effort to de-stigmatise sexual activity outside marriage the losers have been children.

I see it differently OP.

Yes men do get a bloody good deal. However, being an independent woman and a single mum has its plus points.
Yes, I've raised ds on my own, his f does absolutely nothing, and it has been hard work but...

I get to raise ds on healthy food. I get to choose and manage ds' education, I can set ds a good work example, I can counter ex's increasingly misogynistic views. I can raise my child to be kind and polite and open minded. I can model healthy relationships. As a result I have a ds I am hugely proud of every day. He is a much kinder, more honest person than his dad.
I value that freedom.

I think making CMS fit for purpose might go some of the way to helping. All I ever got from them were repeated letters telling me how they had the power to take away my non-paying ex's driving licence or passport. They never actually DID it, just told me that they could.

Which did not help me in the slightest.

Some of the MN tropes don’t really describe society as it is or how normal people behave.

There is a massive biological drive to have children from both sexes, but especially women. And the idea that you can see into the future as to whom will be a ‘shitty’ father isn’t realistic. Luckily, people don’t make decisions with 20/20 hindsight, and everyone romanticises their partner and at least somewhat overlooks the bad points in a relationship. That is a normal psychological bias.

So the idea of blaming women who ‘procreate with useless men’ is victim blaming of the worst kind.

But also, until recently and, even now to a lesser extent, women were assumed to be the primary parent in the case of divorce. For fathers who loved their children, they definitely came out emotionally worse from this, even if financially better off.

Personally, I pay way more than 50% of my childrens’ costs, and still pay a small amount of maintenance, despite a very generous divorce settlement. Because they are my children and I love and want the best for them.

So, yes, there are some shitty fathers out there, and also some gold diggers. But I am not sure either typify how men or women are or that any conclusions can be drawn about how society is structured.

I guess the reality is that you can’t force someone to be a good parent using law, and maintenance can only cover the minimum and is very cheatable, especially for the self employed.

It isn't right and it shouldn't be like this.
The problem is that us men have no concept of what absolute crap women have to endure. This means that we don't, however empathetic any man might be, have an innate sense of how bad things are, we have to theorise it.
Whatever situation you line up, a man gets given far more leeway than a woman ever would. Walk away from your kids, a man might get some disapproval, but in reality it would be consequence free.
A man as a lone parent, what a hero, a woman as a lone parent, probably only after the benefits. Nonsense but just an example of how society is biased against women.

I vividly remember my auntie being a single mother, her son (my cousin) being about 5, sitting with his little backpack on waiting for his dad, who didn't show up yet again and my auntie having to deal with the fallout of that. While at the same time trying to stretch the last of her money for his packed lunches for the coming week. His father done absolutely fuck all. My cousin is in his mid-30s now and I still see that wee boy.

That is the general pattern. Yes there are exceptions but the general pattern in Western society is men walking away from their children, failing to support their children, and the mother trying to keep their heads above water.

My dad - absent. My step-dad - abusive and then would only pay intermittent child maintenance directly to his 12 year old daughter as if her mum didn't need to house, feed and clothe her. My other cousin, playing the proud father with his daughter while never acknowledging his other daughter or paying anything for her care.

My daughter's dad could do this at any time. He won't, but he could. His dad did.

OK, I won't argue with that. Hope things work out for you.

Amen! Yes, can totally relate to all of this. One thing I wish we could import from the US is their zero tolerance and repercussions for fucking deadbeat dads. Take away their driving licences and jail them

My child’s father now has 4 children to 4 different women and doesn’t pay for any of them. How is he allowed to get away with that? He works low paid jobs, he’s in and out of work and goes “self employed” every now and then to avoid CMS. He’s an absolute scumbag but society doesn’t think so! He should be made to work like a dog to pay for all these kids he keeps having!

I would love to have another child but it’s been such a struggle trying to provide for the one I already have that it absolutely terrifies me to think I could end up in the same situation but with two children. I can’t see myself ever trusting a man enough to have a child with him unless I either win the lottery or the man gives me a lump sum in advance to cover the cost of raising the child in case we split up.

You chose an arsehole to have a kid with 🤷
While I fully appreciate societal advantages for men in general, and commiserate with you for your experiences, one arsehole doesn't make a general rule of thumb, and many people will have had better outcomes

And me. No abusive men have ever been allowed into my life.🤷‍♀️

I’m lucky enough to have one of the good ones when it comes to DH but I think you’d be hard pressed to go through pregnancy, labour and the early childhood years without realising why we still need feminism. It’s a massive shock to the system.

I suspect this is a key reason for the falling birth rate. Having children disproportionately impacts women and fewer and fewer women are falling for it.

Lots of men are completely shit, I agree, but it fucking pains me to read on MN (and see IRL) women continuing to have children with piece of shit men. Threads that describe years and years of the most diabolical male behaviour followed by “I’m currently pregnant with our third”. WHY?

If I had my way, feckless fathers would be publicly shamed for not paying for their children, it would be a massive deal in society.

I don’t know why the government don’t do something drastic to make them pay, these “men” cost the country millions of pounds, probably more.

There are so many single mums trying to work and having to claim benefits on top, getting into debt, children growing up in poverty and being disadvantaged from not getting any or enough child maintenance from the father. It all negatively impacts society as well as the individual families.

Well I feel for you @herefortheclicks . The other side of the coin is Men have no real rights with their kids. And I've been through that, always paid, had to do so the traveling, and after 13 years she moved away and he didn't want to come see me. I could go into detail but don't want to derail your post. Just very frustrating as a Man too. I wonder if it's not really about one gender and rather about having to put up with shitty people.