AIBU - sparklers indoors should be illegal following Crans Montana deaths

the foam across the ceiling seems to have been the main issue here

I agree 100% on the materials on the ceiling but think all sources of fire should also be removed or minimised.

Clearly, if you run a venue and indoor fireworks were banned you simply wouldn't have them to put in the bottles in the first place.

Yes, I know all that.

Doesn't negate the point that the sparklers were the source of the flame and that fires have been caused by them. No sparklers in bottles = no flames near the flammable material.

I believe they weren't "sparklers" as we normally think about them (hold on your hand and write your name in the sky on bonfire night), but Ice Fountain candles (see picture of one for sale in Waitrose).

That is terrifying. Did staff do nothing about this??

15 year olds shouldn’t have been there. I believe one of the named victims was 14. But in Switzerland 16 years olds can drink wine and beer so those 16 and over were there legitimately.

With respect, please watch the following video demonstrating the enormous difference in flashover times depending on whether the materials are natural or synthetic.

There are reasons for stringent regulations about this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=87hAnxuh1g8

They would appear to be more like indoor fireworks rather than the sort of sparklers we have in 5th Nov, but my first thought was that whatever the material used on the ceiling, it was evidently so dangerously flammable, it should never have been used in the first place.

I was a bit 🤨 at the statement the owners put out saying they were struggling to eat and sleep in the aftermath but without a single mention of the fact that many people are dead and their families are suffering.

Someone should be going to prison over this. There have been cases of many people being killed due to other people's greed and ineptitude in this country (Grenfell, Hillsborough, Zeebrugge) and their families receiving no justice. I only hope the Swiss do it differently.

There may be an element that because Switzerland is a very law abiding and safe country, where such incidents are extremely rare and there are very low crime rates in general, that enforcement was lax but that is speculation. The authorities have taken very swift action though to issue a preliminary report on the suspected cause and to open a criminal case against the owners of the bar.

Horrific for the victims and families. Many of those inside didn’t stand a chance.

Switzerland has reasonably robust fire regulation. A minimum of two exits are required for a venue of this size and there are minimum exit size requirements. Fire extinguishers are required to be in place. There are regulations regarding the flammable properties of soundproofing material. There are also regulations requiring specific permission to use pyrotechnics/ indoor fireworks in such venues.

The issue here doesn’t appear to be around the regulations themselves, rather compliance and the robustness of inspections and enforcement: much like Grenfell. It should be noted that the Swiss response has been very swift in terms of investigating since the incident, whereas in the UK this process always seems to be shambolic.

I mean, it’s a foam ceiling in a wooden panelled building. It’s not their fault and they may have been told to do it (and they’ll have paid a heavy price) but it’s obviously unsafe.

The promo video only seemed to show this happening upstairs; maybe they’d been told not to in the basement but did it anyway or misunderstood. Only the owners and staff know.

The staff may not have known that there was a flammable ceiling.

And culturally we do tend to follow the rules we have got, while there are some places where rules are strict in theory but everyone ignores them.

Also UK regulations tend to be some of the most stringent in the world - it’s easy to forget that many “superior” countries have more lax regulation.

I voted YABU because you can't legislate against stupity. Otherwise you'd need laws against things like having a bonfire in your bedroom or using the toaster while in the bath.

There is a list of nightclub fires on Wikipedia. The most recent one in the UK is 1999. Nobody died. Before that, it’s Denmark Place in 1980, which was an illegal bar about to be closed down, and before that, 1961.
It does sound like the UK has had a system for this type of venue which works for a long time (which makes Grenfell all the more disgraceful; we clearly know how to prevent deaths from fire when we don’t allow the system to be degraded).

Yes, The Station nightclub in Rhode Island in 2003. Almost identical causes (pyrotechnics and flammable ceiling) resulting inevitably in a very similar deadly flashover fire. No sprinklers.

Also the flashover first at the Stardust nightclub in Ireland in 1981. Caused by an electrical fault but similar issues with a flammable ceiling and insufficient exits.

Before that there was the flashover fire at Cocoanut Grove in Boston in 1942. Basement with one exit staircase, flammable ceilings, locked exits.

Switzerland does have fairly robust fire safety standards. It seems clear that the bar did not adhere to the regulations. People always say lessons will be learned but the learning seems very slow.

Those poor kids.

It’s venue specific, low ceiling, flammable materials etc and crucially lack of fire escape and no fire suppression system. Plenty of bars and restaurants have sparklers in the uk without incident eg cocktail bars or on birthday cakes. Proportional response is needed and in this case the tragedy is due to a combination of factors.

what should be done by all businesses is to review their evacuation plan, this is absolutely crucial for all establishments not just linked to gimmicks like sparklers

It’s the Swiss cheese model of disasters (ironically): flammable ceiling foam, dangerous use of sparklers, locked emergency exits, possible overcrowding.
I am not sure much could have been done in the time even if everyone there had been sober, it sounds like the fire spread too fast to fight and getting everyone out though the narrow staircase would take time even with calm and compos mentis adults.

The UK already has robust fire safety legislation. The laws in Switzerland are for their government to decide.

The woman of the owner couple was at Le Constellation that night and escaped with arm burns. There was also old promo videos showing the champagne/sparkler service and bar staff on each other’s shoulders. So I don’t think there’s any way they can claim ignorance.

The bar was definitely negligent. Whether the responsibility goes further comes down to how good the inspection regime is. Did the owners, or staff, need to deliberately fake the existence of an effective emergency exit (move stuff and unlock things and then move it back afterwards) or do the inspectors simply note the emergency exit sign and tick the box without looking to see if it is actually usable?
I imagine the owners might also argue that the responsibility lies with staff who blocked the exits rather than owners who built the bar intending the exit to be usable; they seem to have owned a number of businesses so it’s not clear how hands on they were.

I think it’ll come down to the sound-installation foam not being treated (or not regularly enough) with fire retardant spray, and the management allowing/encouraging unsafe practices (for the staff to go on each other’s shoulders with the sparklers).

Ultimately the buck stops with the owners. Many lives might have been saved by the people there acting more sensibly and faster, but the fire should never have started.