To think that this is child abuse and should be illegal?

Thankfully circumcision is slowly falling out of favor in the U.S. It is still too popular for a ban to pass, but hopefully someday.

To be honest I didn’t read the BBC report before posting - I should have done, so apologies.

Male circumcision of children should only be done in my opinion if there is some medical problem, and only in hospitals under strict supervision. Otherwise it should be a choice as an adult (eg too tight foreskin, repeated infections, aesthetic reasons or whatever). Babies can’t consent, I agree

But you explicitly asked why FGM is “illegal and so looked down on” compared to male, and I was arguing that it’s because FGM is infinitely more brutal, more agonising, and results in lifelong trauma and disability for the girl/woman. I really don’t think they can be considered in the same category.

Bad things are being done in the name of religion and I think we need to push against it.

People need to start questioning why we accept unconsenting non medical circumcision of little boys. Surely this falls under laws on child abuse?

According to the Sentencing guidelines, causing serious physical harm to a child (like chopping off parts unnecessarily) carries a maximum sentence of 14 years. Why is this not being prosecuted? Apparently there is not even a legal requirement for circumcision to be done by people medically trained or with proven expertise. Traditionally, religious leaders or respected elders may conduct this practice.

Causing or allowing a child to suffer serious physical harm
Indictable only
Maximum: 14 years’ custody for offences committed after 28 June 2022; otherwise 10 years’ custody
Offence range: Community order – 12 years’ custody

Non stun animal slaughter is a similar issue, we have laws about animal cruelty - why are they not being enforced for all? The animals don’t understand that they are having their throats slit while conscious for religious reasons.

derbyshirecaya.trixonline.co.uk/chapter/male-circumcision-policy-and-procedure

https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/guidelines/causing-or-allowing-a-child-to-suffer-serious-physical-harm-causing-or-allowing-a-child-to-die

My mum also dealt with this type of
" consultation" in her hospital.
Absolutely no pussyfooting around it in her responses.

There should be ZERO tolerance for medically unnecessary baby mutilation. ZERO.

Have these parents been charged with an offence? Has the barbarian who did this been charged? i think we know the answers already, but they should be charged in one form or another with causing death/endangering life/child cruelty/negligence/abh. What is stopping prosecutions?

DS had to have one and he was in so much pain for weeks afterwards. It’s just awful.

But surely we can't just allow anyone to do operations on children at home?

You're not allowed to dock dog's tails or ears but it's legal for any bloke down the pub with a rusty blade to lop off a bit of a baby's genitals 🤔

Agree just ban it unless medically needed . When older any man can weigh up the pros and cons and choose it

But the PP was pointing out the VAST difference in severity on both procedures surely you can appreciate the relevance of that?

I really disagree with non medical infant circumcision and I (gently) advocate this view on the odd occasion when I am asked about it by parents.

But, I'm not sure that criminalising the practice would be the right course of action, because it could be driven further underground and become less safe for baby boys.

It would be better to regulate and educate.

I also do feel empathy for this family. They have done what is "normal" for them, very likely not fully aware of this potential outcome, they have been extremely unlucky and as a result their precious baby has died - they will spend the rest of their lives grieving. I would expect that all involved parties are absolutely devastated and prosecution would be vindictive and not serve any purpose. I hope that the parents and others involved can find it within themselves to use this experience to try to influence others against non medical infant circumcision. But they may not have the strength to do that.

A lot of people choose this if they are doing it, but it’s not mandatory. It can be done at homes and in religious buildings.

We are from a culture that practises this and both of our families are against it. I used to just think it was a case of different strokes for different folks, but as an adult, I’m against it and will talk openly against it. Those poor bubbas!

That might be deleted, suffice to say the whole practice gives me the terrors.

its an evil thing to do to a child, doing it in the name of religion is obscene to me.

I was coming to say this, there’s no real comparison. FGM (there are various versions) involves removal of the clitoris, destruction of the inner and sometimes outer labia, closure of it all with stitches. It is often done on older girls who have been deceived about the nature of the operation, using knives and scalpels that have not been sterilised, and without anaesthetic.

It has serious long-term effects, including persistent infections, menstruation problems, bladder problems, psychological problems and, obviously, sexual problems. It’s an attempt to obliterate female sexuality.

Male circumcision involves only the removal of the foreskin. I don’t know of any health issues that follow from it, though there’s an argument that it can make the penis less sensitive. Personally I don’t think it should be carried out on babies, who have no choice, but saying it’s equal to FGM is just wrong.

For a proper medical description of FGM, just look it up on google or Wikipedia.

Absolutely and completely different. No comparison at all. Though I'd agree both are pretty ridiculous in the 21st century.

Yes, CHARLOTTE. He got circumcised for her then he dumped her to experience his new found “freedom”.

Wasn’t there an episode of SATC in which one of the main characters slept with a bloke who was not circumcised and they were all surprised?

That suggested to me that the practice is common in the US whereas it is rare in the UK.

(We lived there when DS was tiny - the only other parent not to have a circumcised boy was what might now be described as ‘crunchy’ in parenting / life approach)

Poor baby. Ds had one last year on the nhs. It was a long and painful recovery.

Cultural / medically ‘normalised’ rather than religious iirc - only a few % of US citizens are Jewish or Muslim (two main faiths that practice male circumcision), so it doesn’t account for the high prevalence .

@cantkeepawayforever is it due to religion or cultural in the USA?

In the USA, well over half of baby boys are circumcised- it’s normalised there in a way it just isn’t here.

FGM - I was recently told in some cultures over 90% of females are subjected to FGM. There are a few types of FGM. If you aren’t aware of the types it is worth looking it up so you are aware. It’s barbaric. I know people rarely get prosecuted in Britain which is really grim.

FGM research initiative state- The prevalence of FGM among women aged 15–49 in Somalia is 99.2%.
72% of women believe that FGM is a requirement of their religion.

https://www.fgmcri.org/country/somalia/

Do ‘doctors’ in Britain carry out FGM? I’m m guessing some dubious ones must do. It’s awful to think little girls in my child’s class may have had this done to them.

I don’t know how many boys are circumcised globally. Or in the U.K. But would be interested in learning more if anyone is aware as I have never researched it. Thank you for sharing the article op.