Court of Protection Process - how bad is it?

Power of attorney is much easier. Deputyship is a much harder work. I am deputy for my son who has never had capacity. It’s not very easy to get for health and welfare & they seem to be rejecting more and more (I got it, but we are still limited in the decisions we can make tbh).

I had similar.

The solicitor will ultimately make the decision if your parents are being coerced.

Sounds like you are attempting to support.

My parents found receiving advice and guidance from a solicitor- someone with an authority- very reassuring. They also, therefore, felt they were making the decision.

I'm in the same situation and my parents are early 80s. Noticeable decline in last couple of years. Mum now has heart failure.

I have tried to be respectful and have brought it up a couple of times over the last couple of years, unsuccessfully. Like your parents, they agree in principle that it is something they will eventually need but they seem completely oblivious to needing to do it sooner rather than later.

I even tried to explain that it is different to when my parents had to deal with this with their parents and how difficult it is now. I feel is unfair to leave me in a position where I will have to deal with all that. I am a high risk DV victim - when my perpetrator gets out of prison, he represents significant risk to me and our child - and disabled, parenting a SEN child who I now have to home educate due to SEMH issues and lack of adequate school provision. I can't imagine making my life even more difficult with this situation.

I am going to have to try and have another conversation sometime in the next few months and highlight not only how difficult it it, but the intrusion (social care/doctors) and the cost. I dread this conversation because my mum acts as if I'm somehow writing her off and being disrespectful. My mum is difficult anyway - narc tendencies - and seems to be getting increasingly difficult as she's getting older.

I have no advice other than to gather the information, print off the form, present the facts, and try to highlight the negatives of leaving it... cost and intrusion etc.

@ProcrastinatorsAnonymous

I'm at the beginning of the process of applying for Deputyship. If you want to focus on the cost of it:

£421 application fee.
£500 for a private social worker to complete the lack of capacity assessment, if you want to avoid taking months to get it from NHS.
Annual supervision fee: £320 (or £35 if the person has assets under £21k).
£100 assessment fee for a new Deputy.
Annual security bond (a type of insurance) which I think costs 0.02% of the value of the assets (equal to £200 for every £100k of assets).

So the application fee is higher than POA, plus ongoing annual fees of hundreds of pounds.

For the application form you need to list every savings account, investment etc and their value. If the person owns a property, need to get that valued (and pay for that too).

If permission to sell a property isn't granted in the first court order, you have to apply again if you later need to sell it. I assume that means paying the full application fee again.

And there's the ongoing account keeping. I'm not at that stage yet but a PP has given their experience of being dragged over the coals about an unaccounted £5.

POA is far easier and cheaper than Deputyship.

Financial POA is more important than Health and W. Adult Social Care can make care decsions in an objective way, if they lose capacity and need care services.

@Soontobe60i must have been lucky then, I did one report that was about £12 out. In the comments I put I simply didn’t know (I worked it out the following year as I put the wrong closing figure in) but I was told they weren’t worried about small amounts.

Ive been doing these since 2017 and have only had one ‘supervisory’ phone call which does make me wonder what we pay for when we pay the fees!

Sorry to read you had a nightmare with yours.

If you're feeling a bit uncomfortable about it, I think I'd be tempted to a) to ask them if they mind you doing the leg work for it, and then b) send them copies of the forms (by post if necessary) a few days or a week before you're going to arrive for them to sign it.

We had no choice as parent went into care without POA, we had to use a solicitor, it was, slow, expensive and sadly parent died midway through the process, so a complete waste of thousands of pounds.

I felt like such a nag, but we insisted surviving parent allow us to do POA immediately as they could see how difficult and a waste of time it had been for everyone involved.

We did it online quickly, and they are much happier, I think older people fear the process and do not realise the difficulties of handling finances in the modern day.

You cant use online banking if joint attorneys (as opposed to joint and severally), it has to be in the bank or via a cheque (jointly signed). This is Barclays.

Why don’t you do all the banking online? I was able to do so with Deputyship.

I recall quite vividly a phone call from the CoP supervisor (or whatever they’re called) when I’d completed the first annual report. It wasn’t an easy task to complete in the first instance and I couldn’t get the bank figures to balance - it was out by about £5. She was really aggressive, telling me I could be prosecuted for theft or fraud if it didn’t balance. I had bought my stepfather some new clothes off Amazon and also bought myself an item for £5, then inadvertently used my own bank card linked to my Amazon account instead of the card from his bank - which I was authorised to use. Once the clothes arrived and I knew they wouldn’t need returning, I then transferred the cost of the transaction back from his account into mine but forgot about the £5 item that was for me. I itemised these transactions on the report and had a copy of the invoice to keep with all the other invoices.
I ended up in tears on the phone surrounded by invoices, bank statements and receipts desperately trying to find the missing £5! She said as I was so upset she would ring me back later that week so I could have time to find that £5.
Being a deputy is a thankless task where you’re trying to juggle 4 weekly state pension payments, 4 weekly attendance allowance payments, monthly private pension payments and monthly care home fee invoices. Remembering to keep receipts for toiletries that you buy with the weekly shop, invoices from the podiatrist, hairdresser and other sundries he needed wasn’t easy.

I persuaded DM to get her LPAs sorted by stressing how difficult it had been sorting COP for DMIL.

My tip would be to think about who the attorneys are and whether they should be able to act independently of each other. Once an LPA comes into use because the donor has lost capacity, it cant be changed.

DB and I are joint attorneys for DM's finances and that is proving to be a pain as DM's bank requires both of us to be present to carry out any transactions. This seemed sensible at the time of creating the LPAs but now the reality is more difficult as we live in different towns.

I had to do COP for both my parents as they absolutely refused POA as it was ‘unnecessary’ because ‘everything’s fine’ (it really wasn’t…)

The forms are endless, the capacity statement needs to be completed by a health care professional and I ended up paying twice for my dads - once to get the first deputy ship, then again to amend it to allow me the right to sell the family home once mum had moved into the nursing home too.

I still have to complete the yearly report for my mum (not difficult once you know what info they need) with the associated yearly supervision fees however the whole thing feels relentless

I’ve done mine online for my children when I had a health scare - finance only as if I’m ill those welfare best interest decisions are often made by medics in hospitals! I did it online, it was quick and easy but post-Covid there are delays at the OPG (court of protection) BUT..do it. Having seen so very many cases of having to sort people’s finances out when they are ill or no longer have capacity it saves a whole load of heartache, seen people run into the ground trying to sort family affairs out. Make a will too. Did mine with the Co-OP when kids where younger with ex- as joint executor but now just kids as they are adults.

You really don't need a solicitor.

I used to work at a law firm. IANAL, but I remember the solicitors were very strongly of the opinion that people should use a professional for writing a will (too many poorly drafted wills leaving a mess for the surviving relatives to sort out), but that Power of Attorney was a nice easy earner for them but something that they weren't really needed for, as it's very straightforward to do yourself.

Agree with others that you need to offer to organise this for them.

Hiring a solicitor is one option, but it isn't legally necessary if you can find someone to be a suitable Certificate Provider. Their role is to independently advise the donors (your parents) and make sure they aren't being coerced into anything. For my Mum's LPAs we asked an old friend to do this. But I filled in all forms online and submitted them, and I'm the main Attorney.

Either find a solicitor that comes out to the house or print out the paperwork & do it yourself.
You've been talking about it, you won’t be ambushing them.
Also see if you can add your mother’s name to all of the household bills at least which will help with day-to-day things.

Forget pussyfooting around, they’ve got to do it ASAP not just for their sake but your sake.
Without POA, just inform them that you will not be able to help or advocate for them.
Next of kin means nothing.
They could well end up in an unheated house, with no water, and no help or care & there will be nothing you can do about it.

Apologies if I’m coming across a bit blunt but whilst I got POA in place for both parents (& indeed myself!).

I have friends who are running themselves ragged through the Court of Protection just because their parents were stubborn regarding POA. They’re beginning to regret getting involved & certainly fond childhood memories are disappearing fast.

Court of protection fees are all here. It could add up to thousands.
450 initial fee then 320 annually. Plus there may be other expenses on top. Annually, you will need to account for every pair of slippers or bar of soap that you buy and this can be very stressful.
www.gov.uk/become-deputy/fees

My parents didn’t do LPA or even a general one but when my Dad died and it was he who did everything then as my mum just didn’t want the trouble/couldn’t get out I organised a solicitor, who was amazing with her, to update her will and to discuss POA. My Mum then agreed to financial LPOA and it was all straightforward- I was concerned as her capacity wavered here and there I thought but because she understood the POA, and she did, then that is ok for the competence mark.
She didn’t do medical, which ended up being frustrating as missed appointments etc but she agreed with GP I could act for her if necessary (signed a letter) - so that helped and on any call, if I was there, and she gave permission at that point then I could also get info - I had no authority over medical decisions but I didn’t need to have this tbh and I was glad not to I guess.
The most frustrating thing I found is every single different company did it differently- after I had LPOA registered. I had to get so much sent/signed/witnessed to put some of her money into higher savings - then other places didn’t even seem troubled with the POA at all.
Local water company, pre POA to be fair, so reasons to need one! refused to put the water bill in her name without her specific consent - she was in hospital in covid times and they had no concept of why I couldn’t go in to get her to tell them on a phone call. However, I refused the bill in my name, obviously, and said they’d just have to not have a bill payer then and not be paid - suddenly it was all ok to do it in her name! Plus I could have got any voice to pretend to be hers really so not the amazing safeguarding they thought.
I always thought there should be a central consistent way to handle registration of POA across utilities, banks etc but there wasn’t and isn’t still.
Court of protection can be necessary at times but they don’t really want the work either though always step in of course when they see it as needed - but if you can’t get LPOA now maybe you can after a sad loss, when it’s maybe needed more, via the necessary redoing of a will and discussion, or maybe can help them without it at points by getting verbal consent in any calls. I managed quite a lot of essential stuff without it, on bills for example, lowering them for one as they really can rip the elderly off, though not setting bills up/paying for whatever directly with the bank of course.
Or maybe just print the forms and have a chat with them - a solicitor isn’t necessary really. They’ll be scared you’re taking over perhaps - I cannot imagine that conversation with my father, I never brought up the driving concerns. I had to have one with my mum about walking when no one was there - after she’d fell and cracked her head open doing this when she always said she didn’t and wouldn’t! It was quite awful for both of us as you are still their kid, who needs telling themselves.
Best of luck with it, don’t worry too much if you just can’t get it, things will work out.

You need to turn up, with a laptop in hand, and say come on sit with me we are getting this done now, and offer to pay the £92 fee if they don't like putting their hand in their pocket.

If they then resist, you need to have it out with them about why they don't trust you, and why they are intentionally putting you in a difficult situation as they enter their later years.

We invited everyone round for drinks and nibbles the other day and got it all done as a social event. We had to do it while my youngest son was in the country so it was the easiest way.

Please do this...

Court of protection is eye watering and protracted...

My parents did theirs when they were in their early 70s....its saved a whole lot of extra stress, 25 years later now my dad has fluctuating capacity at best... He can't manage his own money now.... I do all of it.... Speaking to other kids where POA was not in place... It cost a fortune, to be able to act in their parents best interests