To be confused by the two working parent set up

This!

Although I have no idea what permissive or gentle parenting is. I’ll chatGPT. I have two great kids and worked full time throughout so maybe I fall into one of these brackets.

That’s not always the case. There are many grand parents that simply don’t want to help out with the day-to-day grind (they’ve done their time raising kids, so they say) but still expect to be included on what they feel are special days - Easter and Christmas. I expect because they have nothing better to do on these days. This is no fault of the child’s parents.

I agree. I have fond memories of "the lollypop lady." It definately had more of a community feel back then; I was born in the 80s.

I think the difference was most of us did it, most kids went to the local school so you generally weren't alone. Even if you didn't really know the other kids they were there all around you. I think there were also lots more crossing patrols than we have now so more interested adults around.

Haha, can always trust mothers to tell you when you apparently look abit shit.

Dm's lines are, "Are you feeling okay? You look tired?" (while letting me run after her), "You're hair is looking a bit long", "Oh "I can tell your anxious, try and relax", "Are you eating enough, you're looking a bit thin (I have a healthy BMI), and expecting my full attention while simultaneously looking after dcs. She has starting bringing over moisturiser as a subtle hint my skin is looking apparently not up to scratch. If I hear, "So do you find yourself getting abit more time to yourself now?" one more time, I think I'll scream! She will then moan about her life when I was a dc and contradict everything she just said. 😂

A few generations ago women knew if they got married they needed to choose their partner wisely as they would (very likely) to be financially dependent on them. Similarly the man took knew it was an emotional and financial commitment. Back then a man who didn't honour his obligations was shameful. In what way was that detrimental to women?

Back to the present too many (not all) men do not take responsibilities seriously and too many (not all) women are content to rely on welfare if things don't work out.

A good standard of living in the 1970s or 80s was nothing at all like what is considered a good standard of living now. It's like comparing apples with pears.
As I said upthread (and I think my family was fairly typical of the time) my mum was very much a housewife who looked after my sister and I at the same time. Others have said they played out and went to other's houses - we all did, because that was pretty much all there was to do in our village. My mother (and all my friends were the same) felt no obligation to entertain us or arrange trips out, soft play, parks, lunches out, visits, after-school activities, swimming, playdates or any of the other things expected for today's children.
My sister and I shared a room and my mum did not drive (both frowned upon today).
School holidays, except for the two weeks summer family holiday in a caravan in the UK, would have cost my parents nothing at all, as we were expected to entertain ourselves and our parents were not interested in us being bored because that was regarded as just one of those things.
Unless today's working parents are prepared to go back to a similar life, where we were warn, fed, clean and cared for but not entertained, moaning that they can't afford to have a SAHP parent today is a false comparison. Expectations are a LOT higher now, so anyone considering giving up work to SAH is having to find cash to cover a much higher base cost than our parents did.

Same for me. Both worked full time. Husband away. No family nearby. No friends as we had moved for his job but he was made redundant and had to work away. Both our mothers worked full time as did both my grandmothers in previous generations. Mortgage rate19 percent. All furniture second hand. No flooring for five years. Extremely frugal with food etc.
I think that a lot of people on mn must have come from much wealthier families.

I think working class families have always had two parents working, it was ( and still is) a privilege to have a full time SAHP.
In the bad old days the domestic chores took ages- no washing machines etc. And women got sacked from their jobs when they got married. So it was a choice of marriage and kids OR a career.
Even though it’s a nightmare juggling everything, I don’t think anyone ( especially women) would want to go back to not having any life choices.
I hope your DH steps up OP x

Fully agree OP. Our mothers’ generation where one parent didn’t work outside the home had it so much easier. The current set-up where both need to work is utter shite. It is destroying my life. Even with a supportive partner who carries his weight, it’s all too much. The only people it works for are those with lots of free help from family, or who have enough money to buy in help (cleaners, nannies, ready meals, takeaways etc). For those of us without family help or money, the amount of tasks is just ridiculous: full-time work + commute, children (a monumentally huge category), housework/chores/shopping/cooking/cleaning/pets/etc, life admin (again, huge category - finances, medical etc). Then there are things like Christmas and birthdays which are just huge additional tasks. Then maintaining a relationship with partner, never mind friends. Never mind looking after myself (hair gets washed every 3 weeks if im lucky), no time for fitness, reading etc. Then my retired mum and mil tell me I look stressed and should make sure to have regular “me-time”. Me-time!!?? When??!! ARGHH

Some women love the precious time with their young dcs. I don't think your comment is fair. Whether working or staying at home, people have to do what is right for them and their families. One of my friends was SAHM, and then went on to write a book. Please don't pigeon hole.

I agree. A lot of them were younger parents, a lot in social housing. Not all on benefits though, the ones in couples they could afford on one salary as the rent is a lot cheaper. We were one of them. Quite a few I know do own their houses though, with mortgage, but I guess the one parent working full time must earn ok. Not rich though! Don’t live in London so prices aren’t that bad, but still in the south east so pretty high housing wise.

Exactly, I do not know a single person who has a nanny, or a cleaner!I must not be posh enough! I also think unlike the previous pp, that those events do matter. My dc still remembers an event to this day I didn't go to. Every single other thing has been attended. When you're unable to get time off work it cannot be helped, I'm sure most parents wish they could make it though. We are lucky we can go to them.

I think you're right, I also think that modern parenting is very child-centric and creates so much more guilt in parents than my own parents generation had. I was sent out to play for the whole day and not come back till tea time! Now, as far as I can tell, you're expected do everything with/for your child, danger is seen round every corner, which seems to be the most stress inducing thing ever! Pressure to entertain them, teach them, forever to be taking them to after school clubs etc as well as hold down a job and do house stuff. I played board games with my parents and we always went somewhere nice on a Sunday afternoon..that was it! They didn't hover over me the whole which I would have hated! And I've lovely memories of my childhood! In the 80s/90s we were told we could have it all...parenthood and a career...and the "new men" would go 50/50. I think we were conned!

Yes. We were sold it as “having it all” but in fact it is “doing it all”

Funny how the so.ution always seems to be women not working, but never men doing more at home.

Haha, I love that! There is definately too much taxiing around, very few walk, and they live near to schools! I think the issue now is child protection services would be called! There is definately a balance.

Well, in terms of 'wraparound' care, my father started school in the late 1940s. His mother walked him to school on the first morning and told him to pay attention. There was a reason for that.

Thereafter it was his job to walk himself to school in the morning and home in the afternoon. His mother by then had 4 (!) younger children at home so she could not be walking him to and from school. That would blow the minds of this generation's car-ferried infants but I formed the impression he was far from alone and his mother wasn't considered negligent.

I agree. I’m mid 50s and only knew one Mum who worked full time as a teacher. Most Mums worked part time. Mine was particularly lucky with her job as it fitted around Dad’s shifts. We weren’t rich but had a decent standard of living and lived in a nice area.

Lots of people on here will say you are wrong though. Most Mums were working 80 hours a week down the mines.

My parents were born in the 1940s and became parents in the 1970s. My mum didn't work when we were young only due to my sibling's poor health. So that was circumstantial and temporary. Every other woman she knew, who became parents from the early 1960s through to the mid 1980s, all worked. Some full-time, some part-time.

My grandmothers, born in 1911 and 1918 both worked. One was the mother of 5 kids and the other a mother of 4. The women of their generation in their peer group also worked.

There must be a class thing going on here. Poor women have never had the luxury of becoming non-contributors to the family finances on a large or long-term scale. They may have had to work AROUND the main wage earner's hours, and depended more on informal childcare arrangements, but they worked.

Who looked after the babies back then? If few nurseries/no family etc. I do think it wasn't frowned upon to leave children at home younger than it is today, emphasising the need for wrap around care. I remember walking to and from school at an age I would never allow for my own dcs.

Yes, it can be hard to achieve, but it helps if the will and expectation is equally there on both sides. My DH is a teacher and was working very long hours like you said, so he went part time to up the childcare and reduce the teacher load. He has specifically prioritised family. I am fortunate to have a professional role where I can be flexible around things like school plays etc., which he can’t be if they aren’t on his non working days.

I am not at all saying that it’s easy or straightforward to have it all. It really isn’t and we don’t either. But it helps enormously if both parents expect to play equal roles wherever possible. We both feel a lot less alone and much better understood and supported. Probably wouldn’t work for everyone but it was pretty much a non negotiable for me.

Same here. I had two children and always worked F/T outside of the home. Same with DM and DMiL in the 1950s/1960s. However I do remember returning after 6 months ML (that was the maximum in1981) to my job in a large retail company and it was considered unusual for mums to work when babies arrived, so I guess our family was unusual for the time. There were very few nurseries then too. I did have a cleaner.

Depends on the salary don't you think.

Many people work 70 or 80 hours a week, it’s not that they don’t want to be involved it’s just not possible in every industry. Others work as pilots or work that takes them away. I don’t know many couples that genuinely have the ability to do 50/50 down the line for childcare or housework. One side or the other in a relationship tends to have a much more demanding role that the other. I also wonder what professional roles genuinely offer part time hours without decimating career progression.

The 50/50 utopia is much, much harder to achieve than we are led to believe - and can disappear at any moment with illness, disability or redundancy.

Your mother might not have worked, plenty of us did. I had my first in the early 70s and I worked, I think the other children in the nursery also had working parents.

Is it tough? Yes it was then and is now. Is it harder for you than it was for me? Probably not.