to think no one can define living as a woman

But you’re describing femininity. Women don’t have to be feminine to be women. Men can be feminine and still aren’t women. According to your definition, I do not ‘live as a woman’. (My menopause symptoms beg to differ).

So your definition of ‘living as a woman’ means ‘performing stereotypes of femininity’. Why don’t they just call it that?

‘Living as a woman’ is only available to women.

My adult DD identifies as non-binary. Doesn’t feel like man or a woman (but def leans more towards the man side). We don’t really discuss it now although I’ve tried in the past but get short shrift. There’s been no change of name, only pronouns. Their dress is fairly androgynous . It’s now been 5 years since they came out as n/b and certain people(some family and my friends) still don’t know.

As a woman I don’t really know how I feel ‘female’. I’m not particularly girly (prefer trousers/trainers combo, not really heavily in to make-up, shoes, beauty etc but like to look presentable). I def ‘feel’ like a woman (as the song goes) - maybe it’s an inate thing.

Personally I feel that there are some ‘genuine’ trans folk, but there’s a lot of social contagion, esp post-Covid when teens spent far too long online in their rooms and in their own heads.

If a man wants to identify as a woman then good luck to him, but I draw the like at a penis in a female space. That should never happen. I do know of a couple of trans men - one who frankly looks ridiculous as they’re a petite woman and so they look like a pre-pubescent boy!

I was a huge fan of the rock band Poison back in my younger days.

Very much make up wearing men, and very much male despite that. Hordes of female fans like me who knew damn well they were all male.
Plenty of other bands like that too back then.

I miss those days when men could look like that and no one suggested they were presenting as women.

I would argue that the makeup thing is a specifically female thing though, since the vast majority of men don't wear makeup. That's at least one small way that you are living as a woman in comparison to the way that men live.

The term 'living as a woman' came from the doctors who wanted men to 'prove' they could 'live' as a woman by falsifying some paperwork and using female spaces without allegedly being clocked prior to them having their penis removed.

So they used females spaces and reported back to their doctors that they were 'living as a woman' because no woman had 'clocked' them in their spaces.

When in fact what happened is that women 'clocked' them, and either stayed silent, left, hid in the toilets or just avoided using the toilets instead of 'clocking' them, making a fuss and potentially getting their face smashed in.

Living as a woman is such a meaningless term.
I live as a woman, because I was born female and have no choice.

I do 'present' as a stereotypical female, with long hair and make up. I wear makeup every day, even if I'm not leaving the house and won't see anyone else, because I like ithe way I look with it. That's not what means I am living as a woman though.

All of the other women in my immediate family don't wear make-up. They are still women and are living as women.

All of the other women in my family gave up work when they had children, and have never worked since (even after children grown up and left home). I had a child and continued to work, as I had no one else to support me. As a result I've still got a career (in a male dominated field) and am the family breadwinner. I am still a woman and living as a woman.

My hobbies and interests include some stereotypically female activities. They also include stereotypically male activities like watching and enjoying football. I am still a woman and living fully as a woman.

If I was to die in a remote place, and not be discovered for years and years, my remains would still be identified as that of a woman. So when I die, I'll die as a woman after having lived my life as a woman regardless of how I present, or anything I do.

True.

Maybe the NHS ought to change their wording.

I don't know. I can't actually think of any way that a man could satisfy that NHS requirement than by adopting a traditionally feminine mode of presentation. If we woke up tomorrow in a world where traditional dress markers don't exist and never did, I have no idea how a man would satisfy that requirement. I guess that's why trans man dress in stereotypically female outfits and decor, since there's nothing else they can do, really.

They mean “pretending” to be a woman because they can’t live as a woman as they aren’t one.

so we can combat this by a campaign stating makeup and dresses are for everyone, not just women. So if you take away that, how is this man living “as a woman”? If we make all clothes and make up gender neutral, then by what criteria could a man claim to line as a woman and be allowed to access female spaces?

i said "closer, which doesn't mean close."

I suppose it might get him a little closer to the female experience by attracting abuse yelled at him by packs of men.

Well, "live as a woman" is the NHS language, not mine. 🤷‍♀️ Of course a man who dresses in a traditionally feminine manner is not living lie a real woman in any way except tussling with tights/heels/using maeup remover.

Maybe they should change it to "present as traditionally feminine for two years" in order to get any hormone treatment.

I already told you. You're being deliberately obtuse to make a point.

"Even with short hair, it's obvious she's a woman by her body type, facial structure, voice, etc. She doesn't need long hair to signify that she's a woman, since she clearly is one. Even wolves know the difference. If there's a man and a woman, the wolf will always attack the woman, because they KNOW. (Where I live, there are wolves.)"

I've also said about six times now that the man in a dress is not living as a real woman because that's not possible. But he is getting closer by presenting as female. Which does not mean close.

The first time I ever read that "live-as-a-woman" requirement, I knew exactly what it meant, as does everyone.

And it’s obvious the bloke in a dress is a man.

So what. How exactly is that affecting you?

@funtimess - you sound like the total opposite of your username - and no - I would not like to chat with you at a party.

You need to loosen up a little and try to live and let live. And to coin one of your fav phrases on this thread 'FFS' 🙄

OK, so forgetting about the NHS requirement, I did write a post about what it means to me to live as a woman. I said that there are some commonalities to women's lives that make it quite easy to define. Stuff like periods, sexual harassment, etc. This is not to say that this is the sum total of every woman's life, of course not. Individual women live billions of lives which are all different from each other. But those are two things that I would say almost all the women on the planet have experienced at some point in their lives, plus there were other things in my post.

If we cannot define how to live as a man or woman, then gender dysphoria cannot be real.

Clothes and hair are not that relevant.🤷‍♀️

It’s simple really - if you’re born a female child, with a vagina, you will become a woman in adulthood.

If you are born a male child, with a penis, you will become a man in adulthood.

People can identify as what they like - it changes nothing, and it’s delusional. 🙄

Yes.

I'm not missing the point, if you read my posts. I've said numerous times that presenting as stereotypically female doesn't mean that he's living as a real woman, because that's not possible. It means that he's doing what he can to present as female. Of course, many women wear unisex clothing. But adopting stereotypically feminine modes of dress is what's available to him to satisfy that NHS requirement. What else could he do? He can hardly conjure up periods.

I've said numerous times that he's not living as a real woman, since that's not possible. But presenting as feminine is closer to living as a woman than if he didn't present as feminine. I said clos-ER, which doesn't mean close.

He has to satisfy the NHS requirement in order to get hormone treatment, if not surgery. So how would YOU suggest he do that, without utilising established dress norms?

Your illogical comparison about the woman with the short hair is a pointless comparison. Even with short hair, it's obvious she's a woman by her body type, facial structure, voice, etc. She doesn't need long hair to signify that she's a woman, since she clearly is one. Even wolves know the difference. If there's a man and a woman, the wolf will always attack the woman, because they KNOW. (Where I live, there are wolves.) But the would-be transitioner needs to mark himself out as female somehow. I know the stereotypes implicit in this when it comes to modes of dress are a bit maddening if you dwell on them, but how else is he supposed to do it?