To have not lied to DS about trans actor in Last Christmas?

Obviously you can never say never, in terms of trans identifying men 'passing'.

But what puzzles me is this ... what transwomen in the public eye are deemed to 'pass'? Because honestly, I haven't come across anyone. Certainly those who have been puberty blocked come closer (Jazz Jennings and the like) but even then, there's something that gives it away. I'd be keen to know what people think.

I'm talking about footage of people moving/speaking btw, not just still photos.

Not usually. But that post was. I now realise you were referring to the differences not been reliable rather than the existence of those features.

I don't agree that you can't reliably sex people based on those features.

Facial features - men don't reliably have faces?
Gait - the majority of men dont reliably walk?
Hips - men don't reliably have hips?
Shoulders - men don't reliably have shoulders?
Head size - men don't reliably have heads?

Not reliably they don't.

I define a woman as an adult human female

What?
They are features that both sexes have. They just look different for each sex

A list of a "typical" female's measures.

You are no better than the trans warriors, you are defining being a woman exactly the same way they do.

Yes. I'm emphasising it so it does not get lost in the focus on who can tell what about how.

Facial features
Gait
Hips
Shoulders
Head size

I don't know why you've written this to me because I have never suggested that they are not men or that they should be treated other than as men in women only spaces.

And, as you yourself pointed out, whether a man masquerading as a woman (in the original sex based meaning) can be identified as such always, sometimes or never is totally irrelevent to whether female-sex-specific language, spaces or support are justifiable (they are) or practical to achieve in practice (they are - the potential of that a small number of dishonest men may be able to con their way in does not preclude the value in general. And the longer such men are present and the more they interact, the greater the chance of them being found out.)

And also, whether a man masquerading as a woman (in the original sex based meaning) can be identified as such always, sometimes or never is totally irrelevent to whether he is somehow an exception that can be treated as actually a woman. He isn't, and he should never be so. Because "looking like a woman" and being a woman are totally different things.

Une image de pipe n'est pas une pipe, et un homme qui ressemble visuellement à une femme n'est pas une femme.

Bit of an assumption that all women who have been mis-sexed feel judged as ‘unfeminine’.

Was that aimed at me?

Nobody on this thread has said this.

My comment was more to do with feminity not being the basis on which people identify the sex of others.

What are you using then?

Every time this discussion comes up people start showing me pictures of skeletons and talking about square jaws and big hands.

What are you using of you are not using the typical measures of being female or male?

Nobody knows whether they can tell the difference all the time!

All they can know is that they have never knowingly not been able to tell.

Some people can tell the difference every time

some people can virtually never tell the difference (if they were dressed stereotypically)

and the majority are somewhere in between

(my dad thinks that all of the drag queens on rupauls drag race are women 🤷🏻)

I didn't say anything about everyone being able to identify sex 100% of the time. My comment was more to do with feminity not being the basis on which people identify the sex of others.

It's possible that there are some men that I would mistake for a women I just think it's unlikely. I can say that there are no famous out transwomen that I am aware of that i would mistake for women

Bit of an assumption that all women who have been mis-sexed feel judged as ‘unfeminine’. Many of us genuinely don’t care. With my tall, broad build, large hands and feet, and a preference for comfortable clothing, I was never going to look conventionally feminine without more effort than I was generally willing to invest. That’s me. I’m OK as I am. I’ve been mis-sexed many times. But as soon as I moved or spoke my femaleness became apparent. Because the visible attributes of being female are the result of our sexed bodies, eg smaller larynx, wider hips, etc. Sure, some men can perform femininity, but that’s all it is: a performance, a choice, a veneer.

I’d rather be assessed as unfeminine and therefore challenged in a women’s space (yes, that’s has happened) than a femininity-performing man go unchallenged because a woman worried she might offend another women.

And that is where we disagree and there is no future to this discussion here or in the wider world while you insist on 100% being able to identify male from female.

I can't and I don't believe you can, you only think you can because you have never knowingly come across anyone where you have been wrong.

I think women are feeling judged on their femininity by women in this discussion by the insistence that there are women who can identify every single trans male to female.

Being able to identify women and men is nothing to do with feminity and masculinity it's about being a female or a male.

You can be the most unfeminine woman but still be easily identifiable as a female

I think women are feeling judged on their femininity by women in this discussion by the insistence that there are women who can identify every single trans male to female.

I think that because I am experiencing it. Earlier in the thread somebody says that a model is obviously a male because of the length of the neck. My neck is at least as long as that model's, possibly a tad longer. My shoulders are both broader and squarer.

I think women should stop arguing that they can tell in every instance whether someone is male or female. The fact is that they only know the ones they have spotted. They don't know how many they have been near and not realised.

I loathe the way the male to female trans lobby define being female on the basis of how someone looks, dresses and acts and I wish the women who assert that they can recognise every single male to female trans person could see the self evident point that their argument is exactly the same.

Both sides of this argument are actively demeaning women who do not present on the feminine end of the spectrum.

I also think men should stay out of women's spaces full stop and be told so. But then again I think men should not rape women, full stop, and they have already been told so. And I have absolutely no hope that either of those situations will ever be 100% achieved because as far as I can see there is no practical way of making that happen.

I also think there are four sets of trans people. Those who believe they were born in the wrong body and have felt that way all their lives. (2 sets MtoF and FtoM), those who hit problems dealing with the adult world looming at them and think not going through puberty will fix that, and the autogynophiles, who are turned on by the idea of being women.

And I think those people need treating in 3 entirely separate ways, but I have no idea how that could be made to happen.

I believe that the aggressive male to female trans lobby has done immense harm to women, gay people and trans people in this country.

Well as I said, I am not clear on your point here.

So if that is not what you think, what is it that you do think?

Based only on what you have said and making no inference whatsoever, I understand that you feel that because men (actual men) who try to present as "women" are obviously, to some women at least, not in fact women, some women (actual women) may feel they have to meet "feminine" standards they did not previously feel were necessary.

I do not agree with this, but that is by the by. I understand that is what you think.

But the thing is, so what? Why are you saying this? Assuming you are in fact correct here, what do you think should be different, or be done differently, to solve the problem?

I think you are missing the point that prisons and hospitals have not been running single sex facilities as single sex.

This is because the trans lobby have tried to make the world believe they are bigots if they state facts.

No, I'm suggesting that in the vast majority of cases we can tell someone's sex without asking them to strip off and even if there are some men that are apparently indistinguishable from women that is not a good reason not to have single sex spaces .

Do you think men were put in womens Prisons because no one realised they were men?