To have not lied to DS about trans actor in Last Christmas?

This is extremely important. Men commit most violent crime, including most sexual assaults. Bringing children up unable to recognise a man from a woman (if he’s pretending to be a woman) is putting them in danger.

Yes absolutely

I'm just pointing out that while chromosomes, taken in isolation, are not always perfect indicators of sex, it is always possible to determine sex, even with complex DSDs.

Again, the ability to produce female gametes in the presence of a Y chromosome is a medical anomaly which was not intended in the human design.

It's equivalent to saying that humans are not bipedes because some people are born with one or three legs.

The definition of sex is based around gamete production, not chromosomes. Females have bodies that have developed on a pathway to make large gametes. Males have bodies that have developed on a pathway to make small gametes.

In the vast majority of cases that maps directly back to XX or XY chromosomes. In some cases it is more complex than that, but still identifiable as either male or female.

And that is a medical anomaly. For which further testing will explain it. But in 99.02% of cases in the human race, it is straightforward.

All DSDs are sex-specific. In fact, all DSDs confirm the sex binary.

It really is that simple. Please leave people with DSDs out of this, they have asked that they not be weaponised in this debate. DSDs are a MEDICAL ANOMALY. They are not evidence that sex isn't binary, any more than a baby born with 3 legs is evidence that the human species is a tri-ped species, not just bi-ped species.

I'm not bringing DSD into the trans argument. Yes sex is binary.

I'm making the point that simply saying if someone has a y chromosome they are a man is not true. Some genetic women have a y chromosome.

The biggest…. Clownfish. As soon as I get that I’ve got a line.

Yes, what have we got on our binary sex bingo card so far this time?

DSD ✔️
Hermaphrodite animals ✔️
Animals that change sex ✔️
"Normal" skeletal development ✔️

I don't think we've yet had chimera humans who can fertilise themselves? Any more missing?

The DSD people beg not to be brought into this discussion about sex.

It really IS that simple, sex is binary.

Just because some people are born without a leg or an arm does not mean that humans are not a 4 limbed species with 2 legs and 2 arms.

Oooh I can tick this off my bingo card. Was just waiting for the DSD box. 😩😩😩

It really isn't that simple. Differences in sex development - NHS

Oh, and for everyone who wants to start posting pictures of skeletons and banging on again (and again) about pelvis shape, I suggest you go and look up "android pelvis", often found in tall women.

But obviously the female body has a particular configuration that the male one does not and it’s silly to pretend that’s not the case.

What is silly is to declare that there is no overlap in external clothed physical appearance between the most masculine women and the most feminine men when the evidence that is incorrect is in front of your eyes.

The only external physical characteristics unique to one sex are the penis, testicles and vulva.

"Most women"

And therein lies your problem.

I don't and never have believed that men should have any right to be in women's spaces and Ice said so many times.

The "outliers" , what a nice way to describe your fellow women, are so numerous that they are all around you.

The definition of being female is the absence a Y chromosome.

To define being a woman in any other way depends on describing looks, behaviour, body organs that may not be present and/or skeletal structure that is not 100% uniform for all women.

What, you mean physical characteristics like being female? I suppose at least they're not being as sexist as misogynistic as reducing being a woman to a feeling. But they are correct. They are describing the physical characteristics like being of most women and you’re trying to drag in outliers and exceptions to prove men should be allowed in female spaces. Why? Why should men be allowed in female spaces however they look?

I was responding to the point about a long neck being clearly the marker of a male, which it clearly isn’t.

What do you think defines a woman then? Because I’m clear that I think it’s being a human female who has survived to adulthood. It doesn’t require any particular look. But obviously the female body has a particular configuration that the male one does not and it’s silly to pretend that’s not the case. It has nothing to do with feelings, and as I pointed out, that’s the TRA argument. It’s not consistent because there are many reasons men want to be women (and to a much lesser extent vice versa) which is what you’re talking about.

Actually I watched the excellent gritty police drama called ‘Crime’ starring Dougray Scott. The character he plays has a best friend who is a transwoman (I presume played by a trans actor) but the script expects no additional suspension of belief than the drama itself.

The character makes no pretence of the fact that they were born a man and they certainly draw upon that physicality in the script. The script also explored the discrimination they encounter and were pragmatic about the confusion their new presentation brought about in other people. It was so bloody refreshing.

As someone who is strongly GC I’m happy to accept a trans character and empathise with their struggles where things are presented honestly and we are not expected to collude in the insulting lie that they actually are women. Everyone, and them more than anyone, know they are not.

The physical characteristics that result from the lack of an SRY gene.

Have you read any of the thread?

Throughout the thread women have been defining being a woman by physical characteristics.

Both sides are using the exact same physical criteria to define "being a woman"

That's nonsense. The GC criteria for being a woman is simply being female

Since the discussion has been reactivated, I'll post where my thoughts have gone since I wrote this -

A list of a "typical" female's measures.
You are no better than the trans warriors, you are defining being a woman exactly the same way they do.

And someone replied this -

No she isn’t, because TRAs say being a woman is about feeling and identity and nothing to do with those things.

They may say being a woman is about feeling like being a woman but they then use surgery, padding, clothes, makeup to make themselves look as close as they can to the female stereotypical physicality described as how to recognise femaleness by women on this forum.

Both sides are using the exact same physical criteria to define "being a woman".

It's insulting to the very many women who do not fit either side's standard measures of being female, but it's a damned sight more insulting when it's done by women!

Have you mistaken many short-necked male prop forwards for women?