To feel like I don’t like men anymore

@Dogsinsantasuits I think it would be refreshing if the men on this thread would showcase their emotional maturity by being open, curious, and non-judgemental. Calling people ugly, dismissing their views because of this presumed ugliness or age, seems a sign of repressed anger or bitterness, which is not reflective of a balanced and controlled personality, or even of someone in control of their lives.

To be fair, there seem to be some mature and balanced people on this thread, and perhaps they are men but do not feel the need to announce their sex. In reverse, the people who I suspect are men based on their rather regressive views and lack of control of anger might be women who like to support men in the hope of a gold sticker from the patriarchy on their cool girl report card? ;-)

My DH on the other hand is a wonderful, kind man, he comes home from a day at work and cooks dinner (I’ve usually planned and shopped for ) and takes the dc to their clubs (I wash and iron the kit, pack the water bottles/ snacks, tell everyone where they need to be and when). But he works in construction, yes, hard physical traditionally male labour but he isn’t faced with the pressure, danger and trauma I am and doesn’t work nearly as many hours to then come home and put himself out for the family. He also earns very much more in that industry than most women with his level of education do. A week in my world would have him citing men’s mental health statistics, he’s not mentally strong for the family in the same way as I am.

I’ve been happily married and a mother since my early twenties and work in a traditionally “male” role, lots of stress, physicality, shift work, fitness which needs maintaining outside of work. My male colleagues go home after a night shift and lie in before coming back to work, I get up to do the school run and organise everyone at home, uniforms, lunches, do the housework, run family errands, train and go back to work. I often joke that I need a wife but it’s not funny really. I’m permanently short of sleep and have a million things in my head. Many of the men making comments couldn’t (or wouldn’t!) do what I do.

I didn’t say romantic relationship. I said mutually happy relationship. That includes relationships with your family, platonic friendships with women and friendships with other men. If you had even one functioning relationship you wouldn’t be posting here.

Healthy young men get a sense of relationships and emotional skills from their family and friends.
Other men don’t like sarcastic know it alls either.

Ive dated some shitty men but ive met some shitty women too. I have some amazing male and female friends - the issue i have realised over time - is me ignoring blatant red flags and tolerating things i should have walked away from. Right now im.happy 'dating' myself - getting to kniw mysrlf better and figuring out boundaries. Shitty men (and women) prey on kindness and weakness so yanbu to work on yourself but yabu to tarnish all men with the same brush. The worst of men though can be charming and 'perfect' at first so they can be hard to spot, so i do understand the sentiment. I have bern badly burnt so now i consider mysrlf in a recivery period.

I think people tend to mature as they age

Yup, so let's spell that out in advance. If people change (which they do) then marriage and kids or any kind of commitment is a really bad idea. It's a bit silly to entangle lives if one or both are going to mature and decide they don't want to be with the other one.

Threads like this help educate people in what's coming, and it can be easily avoided.

(well some of them), and the loss of youth does not diminish their value, as you seem to imply.

I didn't remotely imply age diminishes someone's value nor do I think it does. (Not even sure how it would.)

So why would so many women reinforce this idea on this thread? You might not have experienced this yourself or it might be an uncomfortable truth you'd rather not address as you'd have to take some accountability?

Not even sure where you're going with this. There's nothing uncomfortable about it, there's no need to take accountability. Women don't want to spend their lives with men, or at least mature to a point where they don't. That's fine, nobody is saying they should.

Yes.

so you can have a mutually happy relationship

This is a thread of people saying they don't want a relationship (or at least a LTR). I'm strongly agreeing with the majority, who don't.

Why would you drop into such a thread advice on how to have a relationship? The last thing I'd want to do is shorten someone's life and turn them into a maid.

I think people tend to mature as they age (well some of them), and the loss of youth does not diminish their value, as you seem to imply.

Young men are not more valuable as humans than older men and the same goes for women. People become more experienced, less naive, have deeper insights into conflicts, etc. Most of us would not want to be 20 again, although ageing comes with disadvantages.

I would never choose the men I liked at 25 now as I value different things and want someone who is equal and emotionally mature. I think the reason many women on this thread say they don't like men any more because they perceive that men may not have matured in the same way and are not acting and sharing the load in an equal way.

So why would so many women reinforce this idea on this thread? You might not have experienced this yourself or it might be an uncomfortable truth you'd rather not address as you'd have to take some accountability?

So what is the point of this post? Do you think insulting people's ideas will make them see your point of view?

I also do not get the sense you are trying to understand women's point of view at all. If you don't do that, why would they listen to you? Or even read what you have to say? You are just polarising which is not helpful.

Implying people develop feminist ideas because they are ugly (as perceived by you), is reinforcing a stereotypical idea and dismissing these people's lived experience.

I'm giving you this feedback since seem to be struggling to understand the problem and instead of trying to understand WHY all the women on this thread say they don't like men very much, you became defensive and resorted to poor argumentation and stereotypes.

What you’re interpreting as women’s negative views of men is actually just women describing relationships where men lack the skills for healthy participation.

It doesn't take any interpretation, it's being spelled out in plain language.

And yes. This thread shows Women regularly choose husbands who they don't think have the skills for healthy participation. So it's up to men to understand that women will marry and have children with men they don't like, so it's up to men to save women from themselves and never get married. Women will be better off becaise and be happier without being saddled to a man (and according to this thread) they will live longer.

Not quite sure what you're getting so stressed about. We seem to be in almost total agreement. You fully accept that marriage and family life is bad for women, so the solution is obvious. The only minor quibble you have is that you think marriage and family life is desired by men, and I don't, which doesn't make much difference to the core issue which is people getting committed when it isn't in their best interests.

Definitely, absolutely, 100% voluntary. Gotcha. 😂

But joking aside I do suspect that with at least some of these women that hate men so much it's just bitter grapes. Like the blokes that see a guy revving a lambo down the street and are like "nah, I wouldn't want to be a poser like that". They somehow never get triggered by a ford mondeo tho. It's a definite case of they doth protest too much IMO.

So, when you see all these women so vehemently claiming they don't want a man you do sometimes wonder if it's just a coping mechanism. Obviously NACWALT (Not All Celibate Women Are Like That) but I think some probs are. It's why you hear them banging on about handmaids and how women become invisible at a certain age. It's like a coping mechanism to remind themselves that one day the attractive women won't have the social status they command right now.

I'm a bit tipsy atm so should probs try and avoid getting told off by the mods or causing anyone to have a mardy, but when you see some of these women in real life it kinda all makes sense. When I was studying there were some women from the gender studies class in one of my modules. Some were normal (at least in appearance) but there were more than the fair share of blue haired ogres with loads of piercings etc. Some of them seemed really aggro, especially when a bloke dared speak up, and you'd defo not want to play patriarchy chicken with most of them without the benefit of proper riot gear.

It's just a chicken and egg question of whether they ended up as radicalised feminists because of how they looked or whether they looked that way post feminism due to rejecting standard beauty ideals. Either way, they didn't seem like very much fun. Frowning is meant to burn more calories than smiling so it was odd how they were all so far from size zero lol.

Well, obv I can't verify any of those claims about the 'overwhelming' number of victims you know, but everyone on here seems to have a likely story. Bit like that feminist blogger who wrote the piece about the guy in the MAGA hat (of course 🙄) who cuffed her son around the ear for wearing a pink headband.

She oddly didn't want Walmart to check the cameras and report to the police when they offered, and she then removed the story outright when somebody pointed out that she'd already apparently faced three abduction attempts and narrowly missed death by being late for two plane flights that subsequently crashed.

Same as all the blokes that claim a feminist shouted at them for holding a door open. Anecdotes are kind of a waste of time tbh. I could tell you that I've faced much more nastiness from other women than men (true) and how my mother is a narcissistic bully who has pretty much broken my dad over the last few decades but what's the point. People make up all sorts of shit online.

But generally people who harbour a lot of hatred aren't very happy or pleasant individuals to be around.

It's also a bit of a head scratcher to bang on about misogyny whilst having an unconditional hatred of men. It's like a lot of these women don't know what misogyny actually means (an ingrained hatred of women). 😂

Good point Eagleswim, all wedding magazines are aimed towards women, not men, and it's usually women who push for marriage and children due to the biological clock ticking.

Exactly. You’re not a healthy well adjusted man. You use mumsnet as market research and intel. And although you say marriage is a “trap” you spend time here lecturing women about something you have no experience of. And that’s so obvious it’s embarrassing for you.

What you’re interpreting as women’s negative views of men is actually just women describing relationships where men lack the skills for healthy participation. You might be better to have some curiosity about that, or to develop your own skills so you can have a mutually happy relationship instead of looking like a fool.

On the subject of interpersonal skills, drop the sarcasm. It’s contempt disguised as wit and makes you look stupid and mean. Even young kids know it’s not socially acceptable.

Do you really think well adjusted healthy men lurk on mumsnet to see how women perceive them

I've been quite suprised how often it comes up. I only know about "the ick" becaise a guy at work was under a bit of pressure to commit and a colleague suggested he check out mumsnet and "the ick". So yeah, I reckon a fair few people under pressure to commit end up on MN to work out what women really think. I can't think of a better place to find out what women think on a larger scale than asking one or two.

Men are desperate to be partnered.

Yeah, that's why there are so many wedding magazines aimed at men and none aimed at women. And why mumsnet is overwhelmingly male and women aren't interested in parenting. Oh, wait.... IME women are far more interested in commitment and children than men. OK, that interest may not be out of a liking for men or a genuine desire to be with men, but it's there.

Again you are showing your age and lack of experience and intelligence. Do you really think well adjusted healthy men lurk on mumsnet to see how women perceive them like some sort of peeping tom?

Men are desperate to be partnered. Men not in a partnership humiliate themselves to talk to women like you are doing now.

I don’t think you need to worry about a woman trying to trap you 😂

So a load of women say marriage and commitment is a terrible idea and that's fine. Then a man agrees and that's activism!

Don't feed the MRA.

They can only leave marriages if someone marries them. And threads like these have helped to make men realize how women perceive men and marriage and avoid the trap.

Eagleswim What's not fine is have a marriage, have children and then decide men are useless and you don't want to live with a man after it's too late for both of you

Another young man with no experience enraged by a hypothetical women having autonomy. Women can leave marriages for whatever reason they choose. Whether you think it’s ok or not is irrelevant.

The audacity of a kid coming on here to lecture adults.

The discussion seems to move away a bit from the initial point made by the TO, which was that many women perceive men to be rather disappointing and would no longer like to partner with one.

...and it's the "no longer" which boils my piss.

It's fine to think men.are useless and to not want to be with a man. (In fact most men would rather not have long term attachments so both sides would be happier that way.)

What's not fine is have a marriage, have children and then decide men are useless and you don't want to live with a man after it's too late for both of you.

Is that really what you got from my post? 🙄