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Original poster

To think the 'Troubles Northern Ireland 1969-1997' ensured the Grammar system stayed in operation In Northern Ireland, thus is now the best education system in the United Kingdom.

241 replies

redange · 21/12/2025 19:30

I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

OP posts:
DeafLeppard · 21/12/2025 21:29

I also think that the Troubles insulated NI from a range of social changes that happened across the water - including fads and trends in teaching. My NI primary school in the 90’s was still rows of desks facing the teacher, and a very traditional style of teaching. Spellings and mental arithmetic first thing every day come hell or high water.

OneDearWasp · 21/12/2025 21:27

powershowerforanhour · 21/12/2025 21:19

"I suspect that if the existence of grammar schools raises the overall attainment the what happens in the non-selective schools is where you'll find the cause. Which I don't see articulated."

If my elder daughter fails the 11+ or whatever it's called now, she'll either go to the secondary department of the integrated school she's in, or the local high school that I mentioned before that gets decent results as far as I can see from a look at their homepage:

"72% of our students achieved 5 GCSE A - C, an exceptional performance that clearly indicates the passion of our teaching staff and the hard work of our pupils. 70% of our students achieved A-C in Maths and English, an excellent outcome for this group of year 12 pupils."

So what happens differently in the high school? Why not send all children to schools like this? I don't see a purpose to separating at 11 but I'm genuinely interested in good reasons why it is in the best interests of all children to have this system.

I'm getting the feeling that we're in a social media world where there's no room for curiosity, only being for or against something (in this case selection at 11 and the suggestion that this raises overall attainment).

Original poster
redange · 21/12/2025 21:26

They were the highest in the UK when I was at school in the 70s. It's nothing to do with the political situation. It's because the NI Education board set the hardest exams in the UK and the schools taught us to pass them. How hard is that to understand? Not everything is politics.

Therefore, Is a A GCSE Northern Ireland = to a Grade 9 in England. A Welsh A = to a Grade 7 English or a 'B' Northern Ireland. Wales has dumbed down under Labour like SNP in Scotland. It is said in England an A* is equal to a grade 8 which is why on 6th Form applications an A IGCSE = 8.5 points and not 9 despite not being possible.

OP posts:
DeafLeppard · 21/12/2025 21:26

OneDearWasp · 21/12/2025 21:21

I'm not sure you understood my post. I didn't say I had any view about why results are higher in NI.

I am curious about these harder exams. I thought that students did GCSE'S at 16. Are these different to the exams of the same name in England? Genuine non-political question the answer to which I'll do my best to understand.

Show quote history

NI students do sit GCSE exams, and for a long while the only option was NI’s own exam board (it was unheard of to take an English exam board paper, and in any case the English GCSE results came out a week later). Some people said that the NI papers were harder but I saw no evidence of that, and thought it was people just hamming up NI exceptionalism.

GinaandGin · 21/12/2025 21:21

DeafLeppard · 21/12/2025 21:10

I am NI born and bred, and went to one of the grammars mentioned here. It’s not the grammars that make the difference, the culture surrounding education is totally different back home. Most parents put the work in at home and back up teachers - and it’s the threat/carrot of grammars that keep parents in line. I think parental attitudes are similar across the whole island tbh.

In my naice English village, there is such a huge swathe of differing attitudes to schools and education - and I would say it’s the minority that would prioritise academics.

This ...we did cross community activities with a Catholic grammar school in Belfast..like my belfast mixed grammar school you were expected by your parents/ teachers/ peers to put in the work ... and teachers were not a bit afraid to put a scathing comment on a report card
The parents would go along with it and muck in with prize days / sports days / school fund raisers as there was a massive push to go to a "good" uni

OneDearWasp · 21/12/2025 21:21

TheTimeTravellersNiece · 21/12/2025 21:14

They were the highest in the UK when I was at school in the 70s. It's nothing to do with the political situation. It's because the NI Education board set the hardest exams in the UK and the schools taught us to pass them. How hard is that to understand? Not everything is politics.

Show quote history

I'm not sure you understood my post. I didn't say I had any view about why results are higher in NI.

I am curious about these harder exams. I thought that students did GCSE'S at 16. Are these different to the exams of the same name in England? Genuine non-political question the answer to which I'll do my best to understand.

Original poster
redange · 21/12/2025 21:19

ByronKoala · Today 20:42, however they very strongly suggest paying an extra £1200 into the ‘voluntary fund’ per year. So voluntary that I got 6 reminder letters about it…! DD left a few years ago so I can imagine that the suggested donation has increased again since then
Or £20,000 a year In England for the same Education !

OP posts:
powershowerforanhour · 21/12/2025 21:19

"I suspect that if the existence of grammar schools raises the overall attainment the what happens in the non-selective schools is where you'll find the cause. Which I don't see articulated."

If my elder daughter fails the 11+ or whatever it's called now, she'll either go to the secondary department of the integrated school she's in, or the local high school that I mentioned before that gets decent results as far as I can see from a look at their homepage:

"72% of our students achieved 5 GCSE A - C, an exceptional performance that clearly indicates the passion of our teaching staff and the hard work of our pupils. 70% of our students achieved A-C in Maths and English, an excellent outcome for this group of year 12 pupils."

TheTimeTravellersNiece · 21/12/2025 21:14

OneDearWasp · 21/12/2025 21:03

So let's say overall PISA scores in Northern Ireland are higher than UK average or have risen in a statistically significant way since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. (Or indeed both).

Is this because of Grammar Schools? Or higher than average funding? Or higher than average proportion of Church schools? Or different proportion of single-sex schools? Or the psychological effect of the prospect of lasting peace?

I don't know. I suspect that if the existence of grammar schools raises the overall attainment the what happens in the non-selective schools is where you'll find the cause. Which I don't see articulated.

They were the highest in the UK when I was at school in the 70s. It's nothing to do with the political situation. It's because the NI Education board set the hardest exams in the UK and the schools taught us to pass them. How hard is that to understand? Not everything is politics.

DeafLeppard · 21/12/2025 21:10

I am NI born and bred, and went to one of the grammars mentioned here. It’s not the grammars that make the difference, the culture surrounding education is totally different back home. Most parents put the work in at home and back up teachers - and it’s the threat/carrot of grammars that keep parents in line. I think parental attitudes are similar across the whole island tbh.

In my naice English village, there is such a huge swathe of differing attitudes to schools and education - and I would say it’s the minority that would prioritise academics.

GinaandGin · 21/12/2025 21:05

ByronKoala · 21/12/2025 20:42

Methody ‘voluntary’ fees are actually around £1200 per year..! Not very voluntary in our experience either - I didn’t pay in DD’s final year (she was having severe health issues and they were woefully unsupportive, effectively taught herself the majority of her A level content alongside private tutoring) yet they absolutely hounded me for it for a whole year afterwards.

Show quote history

Sounds like methody hasn't changed. I didn't go there, I went to another grammar school in Belfast in the early 90s. Had and have close friends who did go
Back then it was crazy competitive. Survival of the fittest.
I thought after the recent high profile case where they had to pay out 50k (I think it was ) to a young pupil abused on a school trip they would maybe change.
Awaits to be seen
I hope your DD is doing well now ❤️

OneDearWasp · 21/12/2025 21:03

So let's say overall PISA scores in Northern Ireland are higher than UK average or have risen in a statistically significant way since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. (Or indeed both).

Is this because of Grammar Schools? Or higher than average funding? Or higher than average proportion of Church schools? Or different proportion of single-sex schools? Or the psychological effect of the prospect of lasting peace?

I don't know. I suspect that if the existence of grammar schools raises the overall attainment the what happens in the non-selective schools is where you'll find the cause. Which I don't see articulated.

mathanxiety · 21/12/2025 20:53

Funny enough the rest of the island of Ireland seems to do well internationally in assessments of educational rigour and attainment. There is no grammar system there, no 11+ or Transfer Testing.

What makes a difference across the entire island is that society places a value on education.

OneDearWasp · 21/12/2025 20:52

powershowerforanhour · 21/12/2025 20:10

"So what do you see as the purpose of separating children at 11 if the same courses are offered at all schools."

They aren't. That's what I'm talking about. Children moved from the high school to the grammar after GCSEs .

The same courses up to 16; GCSE's are offered at "secondary moderns" or whatever they might be called. Indeed, non-selective schools (up to now) are measured by the same standards as Grammar Schools. So I dont hear very much clarity about how schools post eleven are organised beyond how their students are allocated.

ByronKoala · 21/12/2025 20:48

redange · 21/12/2025 20:46

Fees - Methodist College Belfast (methody.org)

Yes, however they very strongly suggest paying an extra £1200 into the ‘voluntary fund’ per year. So voluntary that I got 6 reminder letters about it…! DD left a few years ago so I can imagine that the suggested donation has increased again since then.

OP posts:
HoneyParsnipSoup · 21/12/2025 20:44

Grammars are an excellent system and it’s so sad it’s been decimated by the jealous

TheTimeTravellersNiece · 21/12/2025 20:44

The Grammar Schools of Northern Ireland are perhaps 'one reason' when/if a Border Poll takes place that Northern Ireland will remain in the United Kingdom.

I doubt it. There are grammar schools in the Republic, albeit fee paying. These are the kinds of issues that would be hammered out in the case of reunification. Certainly, as someone who raised a child in the South, I would welcome the input of the NI schools, there is far too little choice of schooling here.

ByronKoala · 21/12/2025 20:42

redange · 21/12/2025 20:34

Yes I have had a look at the websites of Methodist,Victoria College and Strathearn School . Methodist College looks like a Public School with the voluntary fees of £140 per year gosh ! Victoria College I believe was the last Girls State Grammar to Offer Boarding until Covid put an end to that. Strathearn I Understand is the highest performing school in Northern Ireland at GCSE/ A Levels. However, Thornhill College (Derry girls) is exceptional given the academic achievements with what in England would be regarded as very high FSM numbers.

The Grammar Schools of Northern Ireland are perhaps 'one reason' when/if a Border Poll takes place that Northern Ireland will remain in the United Kingdom. Perhaps this is why Micheal O Neil (A Grammar school girl herself, hence unless Angela Raynor can be understood) wants to abolish Grammar Schools. She, knows that the chance of a Grammar School education is a winning vote for continuation. The, number of Grammar schools in Northern Ireland is 63 for a population of 1.9 Million England has 164 for circa 55 Million . England would need some '1823' Grammar Schools Wales some '100' Grammar Schools. Due to the number of Grammar Schools available in Northern Ireland must mean everybody who should go to Grammar school does, the 'madness' that happens in English Grammar Areas is not a thing.

Methody ‘voluntary’ fees are actually around £1200 per year..! Not very voluntary in our experience either - I didn’t pay in DD’s final year (she was having severe health issues and they were woefully unsupportive, effectively taught herself the majority of her A level content alongside private tutoring) yet they absolutely hounded me for it for a whole year afterwards.

Jagrap · 21/12/2025 20:39

What about children who are talented or indeed gifted in maths but not English or vice versa? What can a grammar school attain that decent setting in a comprehensive cannot? I would have got a grammar school place, my children would likely get grammar school places, but as a teacher I cannot see how it is a good system for those who don't get a place.

Original poster
redange · 21/12/2025 20:34

Yes I have had a look at the websites of Methodist,Victoria College and Strathearn School . Methodist College looks like a Public School with the voluntary fees of £140 per year gosh ! Victoria College I believe was the last Girls State Grammar to Offer Boarding until Covid put an end to that. Strathearn I Understand is the highest performing school in Northern Ireland at GCSE/ A Levels. However, Thornhill College (Derry girls) is exceptional given the academic achievements with what in England would be regarded as very high FSM numbers.

The Grammar Schools of Northern Ireland are perhaps 'one reason' when/if a Border Poll takes place that Northern Ireland will remain in the United Kingdom. Perhaps this is why Micheal O Neil (A Grammar school girl herself, hence unless Angela Raynor can be understood) wants to abolish Grammar Schools. She, knows that the chance of a Grammar School education is a winning vote for continuation. The, number of Grammar schools in Northern Ireland is 63 for a population of 1.9 Million England has 164 for circa 55 Million . England would need some '1823' Grammar Schools Wales some '100' Grammar Schools. Due to the number of Grammar Schools available in Northern Ireland must mean everybody who should go to Grammar school does, the 'madness' that happens in English Grammar Areas is not a thing.

OP posts:
x2boys · 21/12/2025 20:12

redange · 21/12/2025 19:30

I do wonder if the Troubles that were ongoing in Northern Ireland between 1969-1997 meant that there was to much going on for the destruction of Grammar Schools to begin. Throughout, the 1960s and 1970s over 1000 Grammar schools were closed in England and Wales going from 1,296 in 1965 1 to the present 164 .The present 164 are in located usually in traditionally Conservative local areas in England. The Most Northern being Ripon Grammar in North Yorkshire, the most southern being Churston Ferrers in Torbay Devon. The survival of the current Grammar schools being down to local councils and County Councils such as Kent and Trafford acting against Government demands initially from Harold Wilson's 1965 Labour Government and then from across the political spectrum, with Margaret Thatcher closing more Grammar Schools than Labour.

However, it is obvious that with all that was going on in Northern Ireland political left wing dogma about Education in the 1970's was not at the forefront of discussion. The, result being that the destruction of the education system that was going on in England and left Wales devoid of any Grammar Schools did not take place in Northern Ireland. The result which is often backed up when i meet people from Northern Ireland being that the Grammar School system has advanced those from Northern Ireland to be the most educated in the United Kingdom. Therefore, it makes me quite sad that now Northern Ireland is politically 'stable' that Sein Fein are acting like any left wing political party and seeking the abolition of the Transfer Tests (known in England as the 11+). Why, cant Sein Fein except that one of the 'benefits' of the Troubles was an education system that has educated Catholics and Protestants greatly above those from say Wrexham. Indeed the Catholic and Non Secular Grammar Schools in Northern Ireland have ensured that only a very small Private Sector needs to exist.

Well surely its only good for those that pass the 11+ ?
Not so much for those that don't
Im not sure i would have wanted to live through the troubles just to have a Grammar school system there were some pretty horrific murders..

powershowerforanhour · 21/12/2025 20:10

"So what do you see as the purpose of separating children at 11 if the same courses are offered at all schools."

They aren't. That's what I'm talking about. Children moved from the high school to the grammar after GCSEs .

OneDearWasp · 21/12/2025 20:10

NeedAnyHelpWithThatPaperBag · 21/12/2025 20:00

The success of grammar schools in raising the opportunities of working class youngsters had to be put back in the box somehow or it would potentially upset the "natural" order. Traitorous behaviour at the time under the fig leaf of discrimination, by middle class Labour Party so-called supporters.

A lot to unpack here. Smacks of the philosophy of allowing bright working class pupils to mix with their "betters".

Also, if Grammar Schools are the way to raise opportunities it is still being rationed. Only the top 20 or 25% can attend and, amazingly or maybe not, a low proportion of these turn out to be from less well-off backgrounds.

I'm all for selection if someone can articulate beyond vague incantations of excellence how the different schools are organised. And for me, if pupils who pass the 11+ (or 13+ or whatever) nevertheless choose the non-selective school that would be evidence tha the system is working.

TheHateIsNotGood · 21/12/2025 20:10

Shame there's not some local burgeoning industries ready to take the 'better-educated' NI grammar school kids on.

FGS - scraping the barrel a bit aren't we OP? The Grammar School system went to shit years ago - hard to believe now but un-privately tutored poor kids did actually pass the 11+ and go to Grammar School based on nothing more than their academic ability back in the day.

Ooops, never mind the stress of living through a constant threat in the background; reduced since the GFA but always simmering....some MNutter comes up with some reductive factoid about how NI is better served educationally.